The silence is deafening!!!!!!!

z2252314 · 25 Jun 2002, 06:08 (Ref:320955)

Right after Montoya got pole yesterday, all the fans where out claiming him to be the next Senna.
Well lets sum up Juans race:-

1) Outbreaked by Ralf
2) Outraced by Ralf
3) takes out DC by misjudging breaking zone.
4) blames the tyres for the mistake (Well Juan, you went for the glory on Saturday, maybe those hard tyres would have helped a bit more, albeit having to conceede pole to Ralf).

I warned everybody the day before about the dangers of over-hyping drivers. I think even the most ardent JPM fans will stop making comparisons with Senna now. This is not to say that he will never become great, but I think this confirms my belief, that a driver should prove himself first before we begin with rash comparisons.

P.S If Michael had taken out Juan, DC or any driver for that manner, in the same way that Juan took out DC there would be havoc all over the forum "Schumi the cheat", "Schumi's dirty driving". However, I have yet to see one past discussing the incident. Its little wonder that all the Juan fans are laying low for the moment.

By the way, does anybody have a quote of DC's remarks with Louise on the incident. He made a hillarious remark about the tooth fairy and Juan which gave me stitches. I always thought of DC as boring, but he is becoming quite a character of late.

**Peter Mallett** · 25 Jun 2002, 06:11 (Ref:320956)

And I thought I was a lone voice in the wilderness.

freud · 25 Jun 2002, 06:12 (Ref:320957)

YAWN same old ----

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 06:22 (Ref:320961)

He haven't reach his puberty yet as far as racing in F1 is concerned.

Sorry guys, he's a great driver and a potential WDC in the making if only he uses his head more often.

M Webber · 25 Jun 2002, 06:26 (Ref:320963)

Another GP Another DNF for jpm the CAR KILLER

**Peter Mallett** · 25 Jun 2002, 06:47 (Ref:320978)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
.............if only he uses his head more often.

That is really my point.

Jack racer · 25 Jun 2002, 07:35 (Ref:320988)

Comon TGF made a worse mistake, it was just bad luck he cliped DC. He Made a choice on tyres and it didn't pay off but it did in canada. He is one of the few drivers out there racing and not driving round in circles.

Sato san · 25 Jun 2002, 07:38 (Ref:320990)

Whats this thread all about ???

JPM lost the rear end under braking , but so did the current world champion and he was driving a car that is the best out there and had they not tarmac'd the gravel trap , he would have been out of the race also .

Ive got a idea.....lets make all the drivers go round at under 100mph , and make it illegal for overtaking also . Then no one will make mistakes and they will never make a exciting race of it !

I think some people sound a bit nervous at the thought of someone having the talent to takes TGF 's mantle . That doesnt mean that he will do it , but it means that he's got the determination to give it 100%

JPM is a racer , he doesnt cheat , he drives to the limit , racers fair but hard , makes the odd mistake .

That makes him bloody good in my book .

z2252314 · 25 Jun 2002, 07:47 (Ref:320994)

Quote:

YAWN same old

So let me get this straight freud. You dont get bored of all the anti-MS topics, yet the first topic discussing Juans race is considered a yawn. When schumi does a mistake, we never seem to hear the end of it. However, when JPM screws up, theres absolutely no mention of it. Likewise, JPM has grown a habit of redirecting his own mistakes onto others. In Imola, he blamed Michelin for his bad race set-up. In Brazil, he blamed Michael (even his own team bosses disagreed), and now at the Ring "I told the team to bring me in for tyres, my tyres where ****...". Well, bad tyres doesnt justify a stupid move in my opinion. As a schumi fan, Ive learnt to take the good with the bad, and i think Michael is learning also

Quote:

I made the mistake today, not Rubens. I deserved to be second, and Rubens deserved to be first

.

It is with regret if my opinions have come across as JPM bashing. Im just making the point, that in my eyes, I have yet to see greatness. But this is not to say ill be blind to any of his future achievements. But until then, and only then, he should not be considered or compared among the greats.

P.S He does need to get a move on though. I think he's had enough time and racing experience to still be commiting childish mistakes.

f1manoz · 25 Jun 2002, 07:57 (Ref:321000)

Frankly, I think everyone is getting sick of these BS threads.

It was a simply mistake. Why can't people just accept that as well? Some people need to go outside and get a life instead of looking for trouble on here.

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 08:03 (Ref:321004)

It's just a simple debate f1manoz, as to obtain and exchange views on what had happened. No need to get upset and lets debate without attacking anyone in here.

Sato san · 25 Jun 2002, 08:03 (Ref:321005)

z2252314 ,
can i just say this ,

the way i see it , Anti-TGF threads are basically about , Unfair racing , Racing with a unfair advantage , and maybe the odd bit of attempted cheating .

I dont think many people here critise TGF's ability in a racing car , afterall , he makes mistakes but that doesnt take a way the talent he has got .

So TGF bashing is not against everything he ever does , Just the unfair stuff IMO. We all want to see good racing and when TGF puts it on the limit and races fair but hard , then im as happy as anyone else .But when he is out of order , then i say my peice like anyone else .

Juan made a mistake into turn 1 , stuff like that happens in racing , so i dont see a problem with that .

f1manoz · 25 Jun 2002, 08:08 (Ref:321011)

I'm not getting upset, but this issue has been discussed in at least 3 other threads concerning the race......

And I'm having a go at both TGF or JPM bashing threads. IMO, there are far too many in this place at the moment, which is to the detriment of this forum.

This whole argument is getting boring.

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 08:09 (Ref:321012)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
Juan made a mistake into turn 1 , stuff like that happens in racing , so i dont see a problem with that .

He made too many mistakes when he's trying to defend his position that ended either him or his rival /both to DNF. That's the point we are trying to prove here.

**Adam43** · 25 Jun 2002, 08:10 (Ref:321014)

"Absolutely no mention of it", "The silence is deafening!!!!!!!" etc...

This is just not true, have you not read the couple of threads going about this subject already( 1 2 )? From reading through these it appears quite a few are saying that it was just a racing accident. That in fact he has been consistent this year.

Whatever, why did we need another thread to bash? The complaint is that if it was Michael then such a thread would have been set up, so you do it for Montoya. Two wrongs don't make a right!

But Michael did make a mistake on Sunday and it has been mentioned a lot, but nowhere near as Montoya's. IMO Michael's mistake was an unforced error too.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at Michael. I spend as much time sticking up for him as I do for Montoya on this forum.

You keep accusing people of having blind faith, but don't you think some could have considered it carefully and still decided that Montoya is a good driver.

Blind faith is one thing, but blind hatred is much much worse.

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 08:12 (Ref:321016)

Quote:

Originally posted by f1manoz
there are far too many in this place at the moment,

You might be right about this and maybe the mod can merge these threads....wait till Heidfeld joins a competitive team and we'll see f1manoz defending him

Adam..i don't know who you are referring to but often i said that i see Montoya as the future WDC but only if he uses his head more often.

z2252314 · 25 Jun 2002, 08:15 (Ref:321019)

JPM was clearly beaten by his teammate today, and not for the first time this season. Everybody seems to praise Juan for his gutsy racing, then shouldnt we be fair and praise Ralf for his gutsy outbreaking manouvre on JPM at the start?Good racers find the balance between agression and stupidity, Juan just hasnt found that balance yet.
JPM fans are eager to put him in the class of greatness, im just making the point that, at this point in time, he doesnt deserve such an accolade.

f1manoz · 25 Jun 2002, 08:16 (Ref:321020)

I may defend him Juke, but I won't do it by saying 'Such and such is a bad driver' and the other cr@p that is said in this place at the moment.

There is a difference between having a discussion and flaming.

Oh, and this isn't aimed at you Juke

Red · 25 Jun 2002, 08:18 (Ref:321022)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
the way i see it , Anti-TGF threads are basically about , Unfair racing , Racing with a unfair advantage , and maybe the odd bit of attempted cheating .

You mean:

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
[...]but blind hatred is much much worse.

Sato san · 25 Jun 2002, 08:18 (Ref:321023)

Everyone makes mistakes , whether there TGF or Montoya or whoever , When your on the limit these things can happen , JPM hasnt made that many mistakes all year , the guy has great natural speed just like TGF .

I really dont see a problem here . Racing accident .

Sato san · 25 Jun 2002, 08:20 (Ref:321025)

RED ,
Can you explain a little more what your asking me as im not sure what your getting at ?

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 08:25 (Ref:321029)

Quote:

Originally posted by f1manoz
Oh, and this isn't aimed at you Juke

oh yeah..in the past i admit i called Montoya silly and stupid but not anymore my friend. I respect him for his determination but not his execution ways.

He's a formidable foe for Michael by the way

**Adam43** · 25 Jun 2002, 08:26 (Ref:321031)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
He made too many mistakes when he's trying to defend his position that ended either him or his rival /both to DNF.

I disagree here.

In defending his position he has only ever taken himself and another out in Nurburgring.

Others we have are, Austria last year. He didn't take MS out, both continued, although after a loss of time. The risk part of the calculated risk. Canada last year. He wasn't really defending his position. He just lost it!

Monaco last year. Going for it too much. Not defending his position.

This year he has had a couple of run ins with MS, but neither went out of the races and I am reluctant to mention it incase it reopens that painful can of worms. What about (for sake of argument we say they shared responsibility for that!)

He has had more battles on track than most and yet few have resulted in a crash. He is quite able to defend his position and not take others out. Equally he is also able let someone overtake him without removing them from the race. Rubens at Monza last year being the best example of this. This clearly demonstrates he was thinking big picture. Canada this year when Rubens went by and also Nurburgring this year where he let both Rubens and Michael past without crashing into them.

The pass that Michael did was excellence all round I thought. Montoya defended very aggressively, but left (just) enough room for Michael. So they could avoid the crash. Michael managed to still get past. Wonderful stuff.

As I have said before, my favourite thing in F1 at the moment is watching Michael and Montoya battling it out. Great stuff.

Jukebox · 25 Jun 2002, 08:32 (Ref:321038)

What about Malaysia and Brazil Adam?

though what happened had been debated like hell in here previously..i'm just making a point

**Adam43** · 25 Jun 2002, 08:33 (Ref:321040)

Jukebox, it is not directed at anyone really. And certainly not you. My first thread was just about the futility of another Nurburgring thread.

I liked your point about Montoya making mistakes when defending his position (although I disagree!

) and that is the subject of my second thread. I do mention Brasil and Malaysia, although I keep it to a "couple of run ins" for exactly the reason you say. It has been done to death and I don't want to tempt someone into starting yet another thread

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