French group A racing, 1987 and 1988

[JesperOH]

Having spent some time looking into the French superproduction series, for last few days I have been looking for the short lived French group A series and found this forum thread:

https://forum-auto.caradisiac.com/to...cuit/#comments

Plenty of pictures and not least id of both drivers, circuits and years. A lot of cars I've never seen or even heard of before, so I hope you will enjoy.

Frank de Jong has top-10 results for most of the 1987 races, while the 1988 are a bit thin, but as his sources was German Rallye Racing, no wonder:
http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/19...Group%20A.html
http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/19...Group%20A.html

Jesper

[chunterer]

Thanks for the link Jesper!

Some interesting cars in the various photos..

I am sure KA will also like this too!

I think we can have a good guess at the history of some of then.

For example the #11 and #30 635s look like they are in Hartge livery? Could they be ex Voijtek and Enge ETCC cars?

One of them had a BMW skeleton liveried bonnet! A spare sourced from Schnitzer?

The white red 635 is very probably the Juma Belga car from the 1985 Spa race. Not sure if it did all of the ETCC that year but I had a Spark model of it until recently!

The silvery grey Snobeck 190s maybe their 1988 DTM cars? The white cars may well be the ones they ran in 1985 and '86. The white wheels were quite unique and IIRC only Snobeck and Cudini ran those rims? So did they still own and run the white cars for the likes of Salam or were they sold on to them?

The 2 Holdens are familiar, both ran in the'87 WTCC and ETCC at times. They were at the Silverstone TT that year hired by UK and Dutch deivers?

Also the Sierra/Merkur XR4Ti is a great find. It's left hand drive so I am guessing it cane from Germany, either an ex Eggenberger or HWRT car from 1986?

[Gerard C]

Well done, Jesper, totally forgot about this. I had Dany Snobeck as co-driver later and met quite a few of them. Many were pure amateurs, either petrol heads or car dealers. Yes, I enjoy it, thanks again!

[JesperOH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Also the Sierra/Merkur XR4Ti is a great find. It's left hand drive so I am guessing it cane from Germany, either an ex Eggenberger or HWRT car from 1986?

It says Ringshausen in the wind screen and having red interior I'm guessing it could have been Frank Biela's 1987 DTM car, before switching to an Eggenberger RS500. I'm not sure Ringshausen build their own cars, and with Ronal rims, I'm guessing it could be a car sourced from HWRT/Wolf Racing.
Anyway the pictures of the car are identified from being from round 11 of the 1987 championship held at Montlhéry on October 11, with Philip de Henning driving. So way after the final race of the DTM, which ended unusually early that year - something like August.

Jesper

[JesperOH]

A tentative entry list for the 1987 championship, based on pictures and notes from the auto.caradisiac-site and not least google translate as well as results from Frank de Jong.

1987 FFSA Championnat de France de Groupe A – Entry list

#	Driver	Team/sponsor	Car	Notes
1	Fabien Giroix, Jean-Pierre Jaussaud, Pierre-Henri Raphanel	Garage Du Bac/Castrol	BMW M3
2	Alain Cudini	Snobeck Racing Service/Antar	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
3	Denis Morin, Ferdinand De Lesseps, Bernard de Dryver	Garage Du Bac/Castrol	BMW 635CSi
4	Dany Snobeck, Alain Cudini, Jean-Pierre Malcher, Alain Cudini	Snobeck Racing Service/Antar	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
5	Jean-Pierre Jarier, Jean-Pierre Jabouille, Joël Gouhier	Serge Power Racing?/Elkron	Holden VL Commodore
6	Smadja, Barlesi, C. Sagne	Serge Power Racing?/Playboy	Holden VL Commodore
7	Michel Pinçon, Roman Feitler	Euro Motor Sport?/Club du Batiment	Ford Sierra RS+RS500? Cosworth
8	Roland Guillemet	JPA Racing/Elkron	Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth
9	Alain Ferté, Hubert Auriol	Snobeck Racing Service/Antar	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
10	André Grammatico, Jean-Claude Mora	?	BMW M3
11	Bassaler	BMW Bassaler	BMW 635CSi	ex-Hartge?
12	Roland Mathet	?	Peugeot 205 GTI
14	Dany Girault	?	Peugeot 205 GTI
16	Marc Sourd, René Metge	Bavaria Automobiles/Labo	BMW 635CSi
17	Dominique Fornage	Bavaria Automobiles/Labo	BMW 635CSi
18	Robert Dupraz, Hervé Delaunay	Bavaria Automobiles/Labo	BMW 635CSi
19	”Berdal” (Bernard Dallet)	?	VW Golf GTI E17
20	Bonneil	?	VW Golf GTI E17
21	Bernard Darniche	Snobeck Racing Service/Grundig	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
24	Jean-Pierre Large, Millot	Toyota Baert?	Toyota Corolla AE86
25	Salam, Pierre Destic	?/Control Data	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
27	Jean-Claude Basso	JCB Racing/BM 92	BMW M3
28	Garcin?	?	Toyota Corolla AE82
30	Yvan Tapy, Guinand	Bassaler?	BMW 635CSi
33	Gérard Bleynie, Lucien Guitteny	Garage Mirabeau/L'Evenement	BMW M3
34	Christian Tant, Duponchel	?	BMW 635CSi
39	Claude Ballot-Lena, Jean-Pierre Jaussaud	JMS Racing/paco rabanne	BMW M3
44	Garcin, Masseboeuf	Garage du Franc-Marché?/Holvoet Racing?	Toyota Corolla AE86
48	Alain Marzolini, Gilbert Frugier	?/Labo	BMW 635CSi
50	Daniel Bandura, Malbete	?/Yacco	Audi 80
63	Phillip De Henning	Ringshausen?/Dianetique	Ford Sierra XR4Ti
61	?	?	?	Black
64	Gérard Fevrot, De la Casa	Snobeck Racing Service	Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16
98	?	?	Renault 5 GT Turbo
?	Michel Bienvault, Michel Lacaud	?	BMW 325i
?	Noël Dupas, Georges Perard	?	BMW 635CSi
?	Bernard Broadband, Philippe de Leener	?	Toyota Corolla AE86
?	Jean-Claude Duboisson	?	Toyota Corolla AE86

I have included all drivers to presumably have raced each entry, that's why several entries have two or more names mentioned.

There seems to be Belgian links to the a few of the Toyota Corollas. Regarding the Destic and Salam MB it raced on Michelin rather than Pirellis for SRS and it is the only MB where I can't see a reference to Snobeck.

Jesper

[Gerard C]

How on earth did you find that behind Berdal pseudo there's an ol bloke, Bernard dallet, I raced quite a few times with hilm and his son (6H de Spa, Dijon …). If you need some firstnames, from memory:

Jean-Marc Smadja, Laurent Barlesi (Elkron importer in F), Roland Bassaler (BMW dealer), Lucien Garcin (Toyota dealer), Gilles Guinand (moniteur de pilotage). I seem to remember Yvan Tapy was BMW dealer too. Friend of Bassaler. Malbete Christophe but not sure.

[JesperOH]

"Berdal" / Bernard Dallet was mentioned in the thread and as I went through the pictures I looked for comments that seemed useful and had them translated.

Thank you for the first names and general comments about them, Gerard. Perhaps you can tell something I have been thinking about as well. Was there any recognition of classes? With a number 1600 cc cars present, it would be obvious if such was the case.

Jesper

[sat]

Three classes:
Class 1 - BMW 635
Class 2 - BMW M3
Class 3 - Toyota Corolla

[Gerard C]

Jesper, from what I know many archives including rules and classifications are no more avalaible. I do remember a separated grid but it was for Production car races. I agree that with several 1600 cars, Golf/Audi 80 and Corolla, a separated classification would make sense. I had a go for you here, but nothing appears at least prior to the 90's, sorry(you must add Circuit to the search): https://www.ffsa.org/univers/circuit...its/classement

[Gerard C]

May be Berdal and his son, Laurent, can be reached via FB they both are with us. Laurent is much involved in 2CV endurance races, mainly in the UK. https://www.facebook.com/lemans2cvclassic/?locale=fr_FR
https://www.barc.net/wp-content/uplo...hr-02-Hour.pdf

[JesperOH]

Thanks for answers and suggestions. So classes were the same as in the ETCC and WTCC:

Class 1: over 2500 cc
Class 2: 1601-2500 cc
Class 3: 1001-1600 cc or simply under 1600 cc

I know the FFSA site and found little going as far back, but thank you anyway. I guess a lot of info pre-internet has been lost as it's been thrown out with the trash.

I will look into the 1988 entries a little later, but I'm already sensing it will be less informative as sources are more sparse.

Jesper

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by JesperOH

I will look into the 1988 entries a little later, but I'm already sensing it will be less informative as sources are more sparse.

Yes, right. As to the third class, yes again, below 1600. Dunno how to check, but back in the day sometimes the above limit was fixed at 7OOO cc (427 ci).

[JesperOH]

So this in my list for 1988:

1988 FFSA Championnat de France de Groupe A – Entry list

#	Driver	Team/sponsor	Div.	Car	Notes
1	Jean-Pierre Malcher, Pierre Petit, Fabien Giroix, Michel Maisonneuve	Pelras Compétition/Castrol	2	BMW M3	Garage Du Bac?
3	Denis Morin, Joël Gouhier, Ferdinand de Lesseps	SDA Sport	2	BMW M3
4	René Metge, Jean-Pierre Jaussaud	Bavaria Automobiles	1	Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth
6	Yvan Tapy, Guinand	Bertapelle?	1	BMW 635CSi
7	Valentin Bertapelle, Patricia Bertapelle	Bertapelle?	1	BMW 635CSi
8	Roland Guillemet, Laurent Barlési	JPA Racing/Elkron	1	Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth
9	Christian Tant	?	1	BMW 635CSi
11	?	?	3	Toyota Corolla AE86	2-door, white
16	Claude? Bonneil, ”Berdal” (Bernard Dallet)	?	2	VW Golf II 16S
19	Quagliozzi	Quagliozzi Honda	3	Honda Civic
21	Garcin, Clenet	?/Castrol	3	Toyota Corolla AE82
22	?	?	2	BMW E30 325i?	white
23	Vignon	?	3	Toyota Corolla AE86	3-door coupé
24	Large, Baert	?	3	Toyota Corolla AE86	2-door coupé
25	Jacky Betti	?	2?	Renault 5 GT Turbo
31	Alain Ferté, Andy Rouse (GB), Michel Ferté	Ford France	1	Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth	ARE
34	Noël Del Bello, Biancone, Guillot	?/Blanchet-Locatop	2	MB 190E 2.3-16
50	Daniel Bandura, Malbete		3	Audi 80
73	?	?	3	Talbot Samba	Red/white
76	Triquet, Plichet	?	3	Honda Civic
85	Fantini, B. Lebaron	Dixi Sport	1	BMW 635CSi
?	Bernard Salam, Pierre Destic	?	2	BMW M3
?	Gérard Bleynie, Lucien Guitteny		2	BMW M3
?	Jean-Claude Devin	?	3	Talbot Samba	Blue/yellow
?	?	?	3	Audi 80	White
?	?	?	3	Toyota Corolla AE86	Red
?	?	?	1	BMW 635CSi	Dark, #48 in 1987

A few notes. The #4 Bavaria RS500 was running as #27 in a few ETCC races.
The #34 190E was #79 at the Dijon ETCC race. From one of the pictures this looks like one of the three silver Snobeck cars from 1987.
The #8 Elkron RS500 might have raced at the Zolder ETCC race, as there was an unknown RS500 looking superficially like this car - from grainy YouTube footage.
The pair of Talbot Sambas both has Peugeot Talbot Sport streamers in the front screen. Was this a one make series adding entries to the group A field?
The #31 Ford France RS500 was prepared by Andy Rouse. This was in fact the ill fated car Allan Moffat hired for the two Australian WTCC races in late 1987. In late August 1988 this car made a start in Denmark with Thorkild Thyrring racing for Ford Denmark.
Guessing that all the BMW M3s were upgraded to Evolution from July and beyond.

Dany Snobeck and Mercedes had left for the DTM and no Holdens.

Jesper

[Gerard C]

The pair of Talbot Sambas both has Peugeot Talbot Sport streamers in the front screen. Was this a one make series adding entries to the group A field? One could wonder but my guess is no because the one make series ones were pretty much stock, safety devices apart. I remember we had barely 100 poneys under the bonnet. May be they got a special allowance due to the small displacement and could use some GrpB homologation parts?

http://talbot.samba.free.fr/trophee_samba.htm
Another confusion is often made between the 505 Turbo trophy cars and the real beasts entered either in Production or Super Production.

[KA]

Originally Posted by JesperOH

The #31 Ford France RS500 was prepared by Andy Rouse. This was in fact the ill fated car Allan Moffat hired for the two Australian WTCC races in late 1987. In late August 1988 this car made a start in Denmark with Thorkild Thyrring racing for Ford Denmark.

It was Rouse's occasional second WTCC car (debuted at Spa IIRC) chassis 87/005, then leased to Moffatt for Bathurst and Calder, before becoming the 1988 Ford France car. After it's French season, it was sold to rallycrosser Mark Rennison for his short 1989 BTCC campaign


https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...a-rs500-sierra

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Thanks for the link Jesper!

Some interesting cars in the various photos..

I am sure KA will also like this too!

I think we can have a good guess at the history of some of then.

For example the #11 and #30 635s look like they are in Hartge livery? Could they be ex Voijtek and Enge ETCC cars?

One of them had a BMW skeleton liveried bonnet! A spare sourced from Schnitzer?

The 2 Holdens are familiar, both ran in the'87 WTCC and ETCC at times. They were at the Silverstone TT that year hired by UK and Dutch drivers?

The #11 BMW is Roland Bassaler, and I'm pretty sure you're right about it being an ex-Hartge car. IIRC he was a BMW dealer, and also raced in Group C with one of the early Sauber-BMWs, which he was still entering at Le Mans in the early 90's!.
I'd assumed that #30 for Yvon Tapy (also a BMW dealer I think, who shared the Sauber in a couple of Bassaler's LM outings, 1985 & 86) was the same car, but the photos in the thread Jesper found seem to show both Bassaler's #11 and Tapy's #30 at the October Monthlery round, so maybe they had a pair of Hartge cars between them?. "Bellanger" seems to have been a long-time Bassaler sponsor, also seen on his Group C car.

I'm sure the Holdens were the same Serge Power pair seen in ETCC and WTCC rounds that year- the "Elkron" car usually for Michel Delcourt and Alex Guyaux, and the "Playboy" one for Dutch driver Jeroen Hin

Originally Posted by JesperOH

A tentative entry list for the 1987 championship, based on pictures and notes from the auto.caradisiac-site and not least google translate as well as results from Frank de Jong.

Nice work Jesper, I spent some time going through the picture thread and matching them up with Frank de Jong's results on a spreadsheet last night, and I think we've ended up with the same list!

[JesperOH]

Some very useful comments, so thank you all around. This next bit are about the 1988 white/blue #8 JPA Racing/Elkron Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth of Guillemet and Barlesi, and it's possible start at the Zolder EG Trophy race, round 9 of the 1988 ETCC. Look at about 2m18s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s0J9KuQTNo

A white/blue Sierra appears going into the first turn behind one of the Bemani Supra and ahead of the Conquista Maserati. I found this video on Youtube years ago and wondered what the ID of this Sierra was, as it didn't fit with anything I knew. But the French Elkron car would fit nicely. What are your opinions and can anyone help with results or an entry list for this race.

Jesper