Project Libra Radical LMP2 (formerly Ian Dawsons Nissan V8 LMP2)

[knighty]

Hi All, I dont know if this has been spoken about on the forum yet????...... but Ian tells me its now public knowledge, so here gos........yesterday Ian sent me an image of his new Radiacal, IES Nissan V8 LMP2 package which was being shaken down at snetterton, initial feedback is very positive, it went 2 seconds quicker than the previous diesel package, with lots of promise from only a shakedown run of 48 laps. Thats literally all I know........... please dont slam the project, like I have said previously, the bloke is a tryer and a fighter, the ALMS needs all the prototypes it can get at the moment.........I'm guessing he may run it either side of the pond if the budget is there either way.

He is still looking for some eco technology for the project, but I'm still trying to keep him along the lines of what the ACO rule book actually allows, versus what is realistically achievable.

car looks nice me thinks!!!!




.

[AstonGeoff]

I wish him and the team well, I hope he can get the drivers and funding to run it in either LMS or ALMS, but you do have to wonder why a Nissan engine and not a "fit and forget" Judd?

[The Badger]

Best of luck to them ..... tryers they are , and deserve some positive results .

[zac510]

Yes best of luck to him. Black and silver looks nice.

I wonder if Zytek could sell him a hybrid package for the 'eco' cred?

[Mopar]

Judging by the Nissan decal on the side, this could be a toe in the water exercise, similar to the Rollcentre car a few years back. Is this the same engine that was run in SR-2 a few years back?

[Fogelhund]

Additional entries in the Prototypes are certainly welcomed. The car ran a 1:26.xxx last at Laguna Seca, so twoish seconds faster puts it at 1:24. I suspect that the LMP-C's, which are likely defacto LMP2 cars for 2011 will run about 1:19, so the car still needs lots of work to be on the LMP2 pace for next year. I wish them luck, but their track record hasn't been great, and I'll be skeptical until they can reliably run laps at a decent pace, on a race weekend.

This is NOT a toe in the water thing for NISSAN/NISMO. If they were to do such a thing, they would want it done with a somewhat competitive team/package, so that they could actually gain some useful information from it.

[knighty]

regarding engine cost, to my knowledge IES sell the LMP2 4.0 V8 Nissan unit outright for £50,000, then you just pay for re-builds........but you rent a Judd for a season at a rate of £250,000.........thats a serious difference in cost........I also dare say Ian got a very preferential rate as this is the first car thats run the 4.0 V8 LMP2 engine that would otherwise be sitting on a shelf getting dusty.

Regarding Judd.......While I think they supply a fantastic product, Oak had 2 engine failures during practice/qualy al the last LMS event.......no engine is fit and forget!!!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

.....this is the first car thats run the 4.0 V8 LMP2 engine that would otherwise be sitting on a shelf getting dusty.

I'm not familiar with this engine. I assume it's to 2011 LMP2 engine regs and therefore production based?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I'm not familiar with this engine. I assume it's to 2011 LMP2 engine regs and therefore production based?

That is my assumption as well. I wonder how it compares to the Sodemo BMW M3 V8.

[HORNDAWG]

One would think. Nothing listed at the site, but one might give them a jingle?
Here






L.P.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I'm not familiar with this engine. I assume it's to 2011 LMP2 engine regs and therefore production based?

yes its the production based Nissan Infiniti V8 for the US market.......what IES rather cleveryy did was went to the ACO and said something along the lines of "we could build a production based LMP2 engine based on this Nissan production V8, but the minimum component weights would render it uncompetitive, can you let us use the minimum component weights as per the Ferarri GT2 engine".....to which the ACO said yes!!!.......for this sort of engine a new crank, rods and pistons will be mandatory, so making them to a benchmark minimum weight (Ferrari GT2) will be cost effective and competitive for everyone........IES were also allowed to ditch the cross-plane crank and go for a flat-plane crank (a la Ferrari GT2) which will be MUCH lighter (more responsive) and more tunable in the exhaust department........for £50K I think they did a good job, it is aparrently a bit heavy at 150Kg, but thats not the end of the world.

I'm hearing power figures of "high 400bhp" shall we say, and that was last year, so I'm guessing it must now be good for circa 500bhp ish......... which will be competitive.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes its the production based Nissan Infiniti V8 for the US market.......what IES rather cleveryy did was went to the ACO and said something along the lines of "we could build a production based LMP2 engine based on this Nissan production V8, but the minimum component weights would render it uncompetitive, can you let us use the minimum component weights as per the Ferarri GT2 engine".....to which the ACO said yes!!!.......for this sort of engine a new crank, rods and pistons will be mandatory, so making them to a benchmark minimum weight (Ferrari GT2) will be cost effective and competitive for everyone........IES were also allowed to ditch the cross-plane crank and go for a flat-plane crank (a la Ferrari GT2) which will be MUCH lighter (more responsive) and more tunable in the exhaust department........for £50K I think they did a good job, it is aparrently a bit heavy at 150Kg, but thats not the end of the world.

I'm hearing power figures of "high 400bhp" shall we say, and that was last year, so I'm guessing it must now be good for circa 500bhp ish......... which will be competitive.

Fascinating.......I wasn't expecting quite so much detail. Many thanks for such a comprehensive reply, very much appreciated!

[Canada ALMS fan]

Thanks as always for the info knighty, and best of luck to Ian and his team. A run in the later ALMS races this year would be welcomed. The car looks good.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by knighty

regarding engine cost, to my knowledge IES sell the LMP2 4.0 V8 Nissan unit outright for £50,000, then you just pay for re-builds........but you rent a Judd for a season at a rate of £250,000

Sorry that lease cost is unbelievably inaccurate. It is nowhere near that.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by knighty

yes its the production based Nissan Infiniti V8 for the US market.......what IES rather cleveryy did was went to the ACO and said something along the lines of "we could build a production based LMP2 engine based on this Nissan production V8, but the minimum component weights would render it uncompetitive, can you let us use the minimum component weights as per the Ferarri GT2 engine".....to which the ACO said yes!!!.......for this sort of engine a new crank, rods and pistons will be mandatory, so making them to a benchmark minimum weight (Ferrari GT2) will be cost effective and competitive for everyone........IES were also allowed to ditch the cross-plane crank and go for a flat-plane crank (a la Ferrari GT2) which will be MUCH lighter (more responsive) and more tunable in the exhaust department........for £50K I think they did a good job, it is aparrently a bit heavy at 150Kg, but thats not the end of the world.

I'm hearing power figures of "high 400bhp" shall we say, and that was last year, so I'm guessing it must now be good for circa 500bhp ish......... which will be competitive.

I think power figures started out around 450hp, at least that was the claim. The good thing, is in the original configuration, these engines were very reliable.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Sorry that lease cost is unbelievably inaccurate. It is nowhere near that.

For the Judd, or the Nissan? High/Low?

[JohnMiller]

Judd. The estimate is too high.

The issue was the Nissan was the significant cost of fitting it to the car I should think.

[betablocker]

well it probably cost similar to what any engine fitment package is to buy.

Good luck to them, the hours they put in, they bloody deserve it!

[Purist]

This sounds very interesting.

A bit of a side note, but wasn't Ian involved with some major program or other back in the IMSA GTP days? I just can't recall off hand which program it was. Since everyone seems skeptical of the guy, I thought a look back on his larger track record might be helpful.

[rich07]

Good luck to them, sounds like a good package.

[LagunaSnaka]

Looks like a great effort! Seems like they are already exceeding the ACO horsepower goal of 420 for LMP2 next year. Is this set in stone? i.e. if a team comes up with a production engine putting out a lot more power will they be restricted? Just trying to get my head around the 2011 rules/changes... http://www.mariantic.co.uk/lmp/future.asp

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Sorry that lease cost is unbelievably inaccurate. It is nowhere near that.

sorry! I was not intentionally misleading people!!!!.....that was a figure given to me by a team owner who writes the cheques (not Ian), it also aligns with what Martin Short has previously said about the LMP1 Judd engine cost (£250K), it was a figure given to me from someone who had assessed the whole LMP engine supply market and confirmed "they all cost a quarter of a mill", from what you say it sounds like he was wrong........really, I'm not really too worried what the actual Judd LMP2 engine rental cost figure is, this thread is more about the new project.

[JohnMiller]

No problem, just comparing a Judd P1 motor against another P2/GT2 motor is a bit meaningless. The Judd P2 motor obviously costs a lot less than the P1!

[zac510]

What gearbox is he using knighty?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

No problem, just comparing a Judd P1 motor against another P2/GT2 motor is a bit meaningless. The Judd P2 motor obviously costs a lot less than the P1!

erm, yes its actually very relevant.....its a common incorrect assumptuion that LMP2 is cheaper as they are smaller, they are actually just as expensive if not more than the LMP1 roule, a Lola designer previously confirmed this to me in the LMP675 days for the chassi side of things.........engine wise, as a rough guide, comparing only normally aspirated gasoline engines.

LMP2 NA: 3.4 Litres = 500bhp = 147bhp/litre
LMP1 NA: 5.5 Litres = 650bhp = 118bhp/litre


therefore normally aspirated gasoline LMP2 engines are more highly strung than LMP1 engines by about 20%.........that does not make them cheaper!!!!........this is also confirmed by the amount of LMP2 engine failures, there have been lots from all manufacturers (Zytek, Judd & AER)

GT2 engines are not exactly cheap either, Ferrari, BMW, GM and Porsche have significant engine programmes.

Gearbox wise, I honestly dont know, but I know even in the diesel config, Ian has heavily re-worked the rear suspension from what radical supplied, and its go a lot of torque capability, so he probably kept it to save cost, I seem to remember its a Hewland IndyCar box which has been evolved for LMP.