Does Australian motorsport have too many classes?

[Peddler]

Interested to hear other poeples point of view.

I think that it is evident that there are a number of classes that are well, struggling for numbers and having to compromise aspects of specifications and race formats to fit into others, I have heard the comment so many times at the track like "we have to many classes" and "CAMS need to have a good look at what they sanction".

Now i know that you are never going to please everyone but why am i starting to think that there is growing anomosity amoungst the ranks about how Australian motorsport is being developed?

Personally, i think that there could be some "culling" but where do you start??? There is sooooooo much potential but at the same time i think that there is so much frustration with the lack of guidence in developing Australian motorsport.

I wish that people who push the buttons for motorsport in this Country would put a little more emphasis on other classes outside Tony "i wanna be like Bernie" Cochrane and V8Taxies which in my opinion are boring as bat**** to watch.

Anyway, interested to hear your thoughts... rant over

[James63]

Culling is not the answer as there will be some who have invested quite a lot into their respective classes. Merging is possibly the better answer...

[storyline]

Look what happened - when was it? 2-3 years ago when CAMS said they would no longer allow any new categories because there were too many already?

Then immediately announced 2 new categories - and, since then, CAMS haven't said a word.

How would you handle, say, the HQ evolution into Kingswoods? The current GT 'sub-classes'?. The Production Touring Car Class? One make series?

And then throw in the AMRS/AASA versions as well.

[Oaksnaf]

Its absolutely stupid that there are this many categories, and what is even worse is the polotics or bickering category managers do between themselves when it comes to a "split category". One Production category wont speak to another and will do things differently on race day even though they dont make logical sense, just so they are "different".

Dont kill the categories, bring them under one banner.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by storyline

Look what happened - when was it? 2-3 years ago when CAMS said they would no longer allow any new categories because there were too many already?

Then immediately announced 2 new categories - and, since then, CAMS haven't said a word.

How would you handle, say, the HQ evolution into Kingswoods? The current GT 'sub-classes'?. The Production Touring Car Class? One make series?

And then throw in the AMRS/AASA versions as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head. CAMS is the problem.

[browney]

Do CAMS get money from licensing new classes?

[Robert Ryan]

Yes there are too many classes . As I said in another thread, there are a lot more "Touring Car Classes" now than there ever were. If you were too merge some it would make more sense.. Classis exmples the two basic production classes in the AMRS and the CAMS series. Viola you would get 22 cars into one class.

[storyline]

Except that the AASA/AMRS version wouldn't be accepted into CAMS (forget the politics for a minute) - their version (AMRS) is to have basically a 'road going' car race whereas the cars CAMS puts into the APCC are anything BUT road going cars.

Thats the first obstacle you have to overcome (and I am not saying either of them is right or wrong - they just have different philosophies)

[Christopher]

I have to say, I've been rather confused by all the different classes ever since Procar died. I thought it was a shame when GTP and APCC were split up, if you could have those two plus the AUSGT under one banner, that would be a interesting series I think.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by James63

Culling is not the answer as there will be some who have invested quite a lot into their respective classes. Merging is possibly the better answer...

Absolutely!

To make someone's valuable property worthless with the stroke of a pen is irresponsible, destructive and shortsighted. If a class is struggling to field a full grid, merge their races with another comparable class in the same boat.

[cavvy]

The classes are constantly evolving.
Leave aside the V8s & Carrera Cup that are ruled by a group (s) intent on making a dollar from the sport (hey, not arguing) - see the Saloon Cars marching onward & upward, meeting at the VS Commodore, the Commodore Cup - should the casual race goer know there is a difference, is there ?

The evolution is competitor driven - the HQs, historics, saloon cars ..

Sports Cars - just take the ongoing, circular arguments of the protagonists on this forum - all love the sport but want their template applied & even more rigorously oppose the other - me, I just love sports car racing & know there are lots of cars that rarely see the light of day.

Too many classes: always been a problem for Aus motor sport.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by storyline

Except that the AASA/AMRS version wouldn't be accepted into CAMS (forget the politics for a minute) - their version (AMRS) is to have basically a 'road going' car race whereas the cars CAMS puts into the APCC are anything BUT road going cars.

Thats the first obstacle you have to overcome (and I am not saying either of them is right or wrong - they just have different philosophies)

There's only 2 road-regoed cars in the AMRS series I know of - Nat Wilmington and Tony Saliba. I *think* Roland McIntosh's Pug might still be, but the BMWs, the 380, and Satria GTi are not as far as I am aware. Don't forget that the BMW 130s were bought to run in the CAMS series, but the split occurred before the cars got here and Kelly and Searle had to run PTCC due to their loyalty lying with the AMRS. David Capraro's Alfa which gave them a good run for their money at Wakefield is logbooked for 3E Production Cars and was a competitor in the CAMS series previously - as was the Roylett Proton (formerly Kosi's championship winning car).

It would be good to have a combined field, but as pointed out - it will never happen

[pete55]

Originally Posted by Christopher

I thought it was a shame when GTP and APCC were split up

I too don't know why that happened.

[Kerri]

I dont know anything about the politics of these categories, but I really enjoy both classes and would love to see them amalgamate.
Please don't shoot me I'm sure there are many reasons why they can' but it would make for fantastic racing.

[kmsport]

IMO no.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by pete55

I too don't know why that happened.

At the time, there was plenty of cars and enough support to split the categories. I think the GT-Performance guys didn't like having to race with "lesser" machinery as well. But hey, it got them to a point where they could go it alone. It may be time for them to merge back given recent fields, but time will tell.

Kerri - I like both Production classes too, but honestly don't think there should be two categories with so much obvious overlap.

[AverageRaceFan]

The Searle and Kelly BMW's were not bought for the CAMS series, both cars were bought after the AMRS announced the Production Touring Car Championship, to be run in that series. Congratulations to Peter for your first round win at Winton.

[Robert Ryan]

[I thought it was a shame when GTP and APCC were split up

Actually it would have been smarter to have ONE LARGE GTP catergory in PROCAR. Why Bog standard productions cars were hived off as seperate class is beyond me.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by storyline

Except that the AASA/AMRS version wouldn't be accepted into CAMS (forget the politics for a minute) - their version (AMRS) is to have basically a 'road going' car race whereas the cars CAMS puts into the APCC are anything BUT road going cars.

Thats the first obstacle you have to overcome (and I am not saying either of them is right or wrong - they just have different philosophies)

That is right, as the AMRS version, those cars have to be "street legal" so I doubt whether the CAMS class could merge into AMRS, but could the AMRS merge into CAMS?

[racer69]

Of course there are too many classes.

And in many ways it's not just about how many cars each category attracts, for instance;

- GT-P, APCC as mentioned should/could go together, and Saloon Cars and even Commodore Cup are in the same realm, do we really need these 4 as seperate categories?

- The well-documented GT/Carrera Cup stuff.

These categories are all based along similiar lines and similiar competitors.

Lets be honest, nothing is likely to be done in the close future is there?

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by AverageRaceFan

The Searle and Kelly BMW's were not bought for the CAMS series, both cars were bought after the AMRS announced the Production Touring Car Championship, to be run in that series. Congratulations to Peter for your first round win at Winton.

Is that correct? The cars were on order for a very long time, long before the PTCC was started.

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

That is right, as the AMRS version, those cars have to be "street legal" so I doubt whether the CAMS class could merge into AMRS, but could the AMRS merge into CAMS?

Street legal except for the cages of course
As far as I can tell, all of the AMRS cars are legal for the CAMS series.
However, the AMRS doesn't allow turbocharged cars or anything over 4L in capacity and maximum of 6 cylinders. So that rules out the SS Commodores, XR6 Turbos and XR8 Falcons which currently run in the CAMS series.

However, due to the people and organisations involved, I don't see a merge ever happening.... but I thought that of ChampCar and IRL too....

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by racer69

- GT-P, APCC as mentioned should/could go together, and Saloon Cars and even Commodore Cup are in the same realm, do we really need these 4 as seperate categories?

Same realm? As in they generally have 4 doors? Or that they are all cars?

[Alan 52]

My understanding is that if CAMS cancelled a category and the competitors took CAMS to the ACCC then CAMS would lose.This is the major reason why CAMS is not proactive in rationalising the number of categories.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by alfacors

Same realm? As in they generally have 4 doors? Or that they are all cars?

No, he's quite right. If some simple forward vision had been applied when these categories were formed, then we wouldn't have a GTP/APCC, Saloon Cars/Commodore Cup or GT/Carrera Cup/Lotus trophy. Each of these groups would be one category. So straight away you have 7 categories becoming one.

What would be so wrong about having a V8 and 6 cylinder division on Saloon cars to incorporate Commodore Cup? GTP/APCC would be a cinch to re-amalgamate as would GT/Carrera Cup/Lotus Trophy if ego's, corporate profits, predatory marketing and self-interests were put aside.