Unecessary Complication in Road Cars

[wnut]

I submit BMW:

"Attached is a photo of three of the washer pumps in a 1999 528i. Closest (left) is the headlight washer pump, then the rear washer pump, and on the inside the windshield washer pump. On the far, lower right is the level sensor. The fourth pump, on the reservoir in the engine compartment near the passenger fenderwell, is for the low-temperature ("intensive") washer fluid and has already been documented."

4 washer fluid pumps!
Not to mention electronically operated washer nozzle valves!

The plastic of the whole system degrades under temperature and the impellers corrode - nice little earner!

[MGDavid]

electric handbrakes
DSG and all other 'clutchless' gearchange apparatus short of full auto.
rain-sensing wipers
dark-sensing sidelights
paddle gearchanges

[Mike Harte]

Drivers!

[Akrapovic]

Arguably if you want all the new features, the complications are not unnecessary - they're required.

Can't you just get a low end model and not have any of the added complications? My Fiesta is bottom rung (was called the Freedom. How Scottish). Has no AC, no parking sensors...no anything sensors come to think of it. The only added electronics it has is electric mirrors, electric front windows, and an AUX input (56 plate, they weren't common at that time).

[Mike Bell]

'Poverty Spec', I call it! Long been a practitioner of it. Even my latest 'wheels' is base spec, apart from upgraded satnav...... Mind you, base spec still included loads of stuff that would happily live without!

One reason I enjoy driving my 1972 Escort is that it has nothing unnecessary to get in the way of the experience. And yet the simple crude heater will scorch your extremities in half the time something modern would take!

[Tim Falce]

Tyre pressure monitoring systems

[Akrapovic]

Poverty spec! I like it, Mike.

Have to say though, even poverty spec cars have problems with things like this. My Fiesta has a high pitched whine from the speakers, which is linked to the revs. But it only does it when something is plugged into the cig lighter. Yeah...cars don't need to be complicated for silly things to go wrong. I believe I'm now deaf in my right ear from this whining noise.

[Alfaholic]

Lane keep assist systems.

[wnut]

Climate control!

On off switch works just fine for much longer than this over hyped rubbish!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

'Poverty Spec', I call it! Long been a practitioner of it. Even my latest 'wheels' is base spec, apart from upgraded satnav...... Mind you, base spec still included loads of stuff that would happily live without!

One reason I enjoy driving my 1972 Escort is that it has nothing unnecessary to get in the way of the experience. And yet the simple crude heater will scorch your extremities in half the time something modern would take!

Yeah, I got heavily criticized for saying that my Escort was the best road car I had ever owned. I did not mean the fastest, quietest, most comfortable, most expensive or most complicated road car I ever owned. It just did what it was supposed to, and what it wasn't supposed to reliably, comfortably, economically and ... the modifications provided a lot of fun!
Clutch 45 mins, out back in and running, on my own!
Try that in any modern car!

Nothing difficult to work on!

[Mitchi_S]

Cool topic idea!

Originally Posted by wnut

"Attached is a photo of three of the washer pumps in a 1999 528i. Closest (left) is the headlight washer pump, then the rear washer pump, and on the inside the windshield washer pump. On the far, lower right is the level sensor. The fourth pump, on the reservoir in the engine compartment near the passenger fenderwell, is for the low-temperature ("intensive") washer fluid and has already been documented."

May I ask where you get this excerpt from?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yeah, I got heavily criticized for saying that my Escort was the best road car I had ever owned. I did not mean the fastest, quietest, most comfortable, most expensive or most complicated road car I ever owned. It just did what it was supposed to, and what it wasn't supposed to reliably, comfortably, economically and ... the modifications provided a lot of fun!
Clutch 45 mins, out back in and running, on my own!
Try that in any modern car!

Nothing difficult to work on!

I think most of the "criticism" was because you thought it was a coupe

To be fair there are plenty of old cars that are a pain to change the clutch on. It can quite often be an engine out job

I like the space around the engine bay, you often have, to work on old cars.

However I'm seeing things above that I think are good. There are some brilliant features on modern cars. Whether that's safety, comfort or convenience. But they have to done well with controls (if the feature needs it) that are intuitive, are ergonomic and sensible laid out. This is an issue old and new.

There are also features which aren't needed, but add something, if only entertainment. I like the simplicity of old cars, but also new car features like the car that raises the seat belt buckle so it is easier to find!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Lane keep assist systems.

There's an argument to be made that if you have the ability to make something safer, and save lives, it is a necessity.

We complain about added complication, but I want a car with an AUX input. I don't want to listen to the awful radio, and I don't own CDs. I want to listen to my podcasts. So I need this added tech.

[midgetman]

Thirty years ago a family friend was always saying "why can't they produce simple cars like a Minor 1000 or Morris Marina that are cheap and gadget-less"! And he was only talking about electric windows and seats...

Personally I like climate control, although my views are now tempered by having paid £300 to have the blower motor and associated burned out gubbins replaced.

Anything computer controlled is dirt cheap, makes the car look more special and allows the price to rise. So you'll get more gizmos

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mitchi_S

Cool topic idea!



May I ask where you get this excerpt from?

From here:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=676111

and here it is:

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Personally I like climate control, although my views are now tempered by having paid £300 to have the blower motor and associated burned out gubbins replaced.

My Volvo truck has got an awesome 'climate' A/C, but of course has temperature sensors all over the place. If you park so that one sensor is in full sun, when you switch on again you get enough refrigerated air to make you dive for the off switch!

A few personal 'would rather not haves'- auto wipers, auto headlamps, electric tailgate / door closures, and electric seat adjustment! One of the better ideas that I would spec- electric folding door mirrors.

Talking of electric seats, when it came out, LR were making big boasts about the fact that the latest Disco has electric fold and adjustment for both rear rows. Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think most of the "criticism" was because you thought it was a coupe

Okay let's say that and move on.

Won't call it a coupe again.

Originally Posted by Adam43

To be fair there are plenty of old cars that are a pain to change the clutch on. It can quite often be an engine out job

I like the space around the engine bay, you often have, to work on old cars.

Also to be fair that was the appeal of the Escort, some of the old cars were indeed pigs to work on.

The space is great!

One of the irritants of modern cars are all the special tools they require, torx and security torx fasteners etc.

Originally Posted by Adam43

However I'm seeing things above that I think are good. There are some brilliant features on modern cars. Whether that's safety, comfort or convenience. But they have to done well with controls (if the feature needs it) that are intuitive, are ergonomic and sensible laid out. This is an issue old and new.

There are also features which aren't needed, but add something, if only entertainment. I like the simplicity of old cars, but also new car features like the car that raises the seat belt buckle so it is easier to find!

Many modern features are great, it is the totally unnecessary complexity, unreliability and cost of maintaining many of these features that bothers me, the feature is not a well thought out and well made elegant solution, but a cobbled together shambles that the owner is forced to service and pay for.

The so called security systems seem to epitomize the modern approach.

New key $500 plus programming. Really!

How many times is a dealer just plain unable to service or diagnose a problem?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My Volvo truck has got an awesome 'climate' A/C, but of course has temperature sensors all over the place. If you park so that one sensor is in full sun, when you switch on again you get enough refrigerated air to make you dive for the off switch!

A few personal 'would rather not haves'- auto wipers, auto headlamps, electric tailgate / door closures, and electric seat adjustment! One of the better ideas that I would spec- electric folding door mirrors.

Talking of electric seats, when it came out, LR were making big boasts about the fact that the latest Disco has electric fold and adjustment for both rear rows. Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

The problem comes when one of the sensors dies or is out of phase with the others and then shuts down the whole system and the only way you can get it to reset is to plug it into the dealers diagnostic system.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

...Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

I think that this is true of loads of 'modern' gadget's Mike, they do because they can which then makes things so complicated.
let's face it, most of us carry around a device in our pockets that we glibly refer to as a mobile 'phone yet this thing has more computing power than an Apollo Moon Rocket!
Modern vehicles are have more and more 'computer controlled' gizmo's. These are fine when the vehicles are new, the technology is reasonably fresh, and it all works well, in a few years time however...
I foresee the value of certain second-hand vehicle to hold really well up to a certain point it it's age, and then plummet when the expensive systems start to go down. Let's face it, hardly anyone mends anything nowadays, they just replace the whole unit, and it'll be the cost of these replacements that kippers the value of the vehicles.

[coppice]

Why on earth would I want to return to the parsimony and general awfulness of stuff I owned years ago like Escorts and BL1300s ? They weren't reliable , even if they were simple and they drank at least 50% more fuel than any modern equivalent , despite taking twice as long to get up to cruising speed .

My daily driver is a Skoda - nowt exotic, a Yeti 170 . But it has heated seats , cruise , rain sensing wipers , six speeds , climate control . hill descent and traction control and an 8 speaker stereo . In terms of go it's about the same as a 3 litre Capri but it does 50 mpg and not 25 .... And unlike my bloody awful Mk 2 Escort , it doesn't need servicing every 5 minutes .Unlike my late dad's succession of Triumph Herald and Vitesses the synchro isn't shot at 20 k miles ,it doesn't need decoking after acoupl of years and it doesn't go rusty if it looks like rain .

Hair shirt simplicity I can get in my Caterham - but as a daily driver it is not ideal . The only genuinely simple 'normal' car I have owned which I still rate highly was a 2CV - a car exactly fit for many purposes . If not for doing 80 mph in outside lane ......

[Number4]

The Vauxhall Insignia wagon has a second set of tail lights inside the car for when you are driving with the tail gate open.
I saw one a while back and still can't get my head around it.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Number4

The Vauxhall Insignia wagon has a second set of tail lights inside the car for when you are driving with the tail gate open.
I saw one a while back and still can't get my head around it.

Seems sensible enough to me. Brake lights are a pretty fundamental safety feature. This allows you to put a large load in and have the boot open but tied to hold it in position (which is pretty common - see it coming out of B&Q daily), but still have brake lights for safety.

I don't see what's wrong with that?

Coppice makes a great point. We sit and say how we'd love to go back to older simpler cars because you can fix them yourself. But they also broke more often. You won't find many Ford Escorts with a quarter of a million miles and rust free bodywork floating about. But you'll find plenty of Skodas and VWs with that sort of mileage.

[wnut]

Ummm ... how about you put the tail lights on the pylons either side of the tail gate in the first place, and leave the tail gate free of tail lights, no second set necessary?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Seems sensible enough to me. Brake lights are a pretty fundamental safety feature. This allows you to put a large load in and have the boot open but tied to hold it in position (which is pretty common - see it coming out of B&Q daily), but still have brake lights for safety.

I don't see what's wrong with that?

Coppice makes a great point. We sit and say how we'd love to go back to older simpler cars because you can fix them yourself. But they also broke more often. You won't find many Ford Escorts with a quarter of a million miles and rust free bodywork floating about. But you'll find plenty of Skodas and VWs with that sort of mileage.

I agree about the extra lights; that though is not extra technology, but is there because the light clusters are part of the tail structure, without any lights on the rear panels. And that gives you a very wide access to the rear - top marks, to my way of thinking.

About your second point, in 1975 I wanted to purchase a Granada estate, but, after spending nearly an hour in the Ford dealers showroom, I was no nearer buying a car than when I stepped in. If I had ordered it, the car would have been specifically made for me with all my choices of specifications and bits and pieces. This included what type of seats, what the seats would be covered in, what type of seat belts, what radio, what type of aerial, and even what type of number plate. That was before we got on to the important details about which engine and gearbox, or even what colour and paint finish. The list was endless.

That afternoon, my wife phone me and told me that she had driven past a showroom near where we lived, and had seen an estate car that she liked the look of, and why didn't I go there after work and have a look for myself.

It was a Toyota dealer, and when I arrived they were just packing up to go home, but were insistent that I took the car out for a test drive there and then. It was a Toyota Crown estate, which was equipped as standard with everything that Ford had in their list of options, and If I wanted, I could have the car in 48 hours to allow them to completely valet the car. Not only that, it was at least a couple of thousand quid less than the most basic Granada.

I drove that car, including towing a 22 foot caravan around Europe, for 3 years before handing it over to my wife instead of a second hand Granada saloon that she had been using. She continued using that car until at least 1988 (we were divorced by then, and I don't know exactly how long she kept it) and we had racked up well over 200,000 miles between us. In all that time, it only had one problem which was that the oil breather pipe from the rocker cover vented into the fuel inlet system at a point that meant that the automatic choke, which is basically operated by a bi-metal strip, used to get coated with oil vapour rendering it inoperative. This meant that at times the choke didn't open when cold, or at other times the choke wouldn't close. Cured that by overriding the system with a manual pull button.

So impressed with that car that I bought the new model saloon in '79 and p/x that in '82 for a Crown Royale, which was the nicest car that I have ever had.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Ummm ... how about you put the tail lights on the pylons either side of the tail gate in the first place, and leave the tail gate free of tail lights, no second set necessary?

Which would leave a thinner gap for storage, because the tailights are there. The whole point in that design of hatch is it's the largest opening they could possibly do for maximum storage.

Also...it's lights. We're not talking an extreme amount of complication and technology here. If we're talking about pointless tech then I don't understand why extra brake lights are being singled out when we haven't mentioned those directional fog lights which turn on and off when you go round corners.

I'd argue that any safety feature (that includes lane assist) is not unnecessary, it should be a legal requirement. If you have developed technology that will save lives, you should have to put it in the vehicle. There's something questionable about only saving lives of people who pay extra for it. If lane assist stops the idiot who is texting leaving their lane and driving head on into me and my kids, I'm very happy that lane assist is included on his car.

Mike, I like that story. I'm sure there are other examples that can be brought up too. I love cars that become a family workhorse. The car becomes part of the family! But you do have to remember that the reason Japanese cars started becoming popular is because they were different to the usual 60s, 70s and 80s stuff we had in Europe (especially the UK), which all rusted away and was generally a mess. There will always be stand out examples of older cars that were fantastic and could do 200,000 miles.

But now, every car can do 150,000 miles. I have a 56 plate Ford Fiesta. It's a pile of crap by todays standards. It's done 126,000 miles and it's still going. My mum had the 1980s equivelent, it was B reg. It was long dead before 100,000 and included such features as a rusted hole in the floor you could see the road through, and a windscreen which leaked so badly it was like having a shower in the passenger seat.

Cars today are just generally better quality. We sit and complain that certain things are just hassle and a problem, but then we put 200,000 miles on a car and don't think much of it.