10 Years of V8s

[racer69]

We are nearing the end of the 10th year of Australian Touring Car racing effectively being run to a 2 make only series (well, technically 11, they did race at Sandown, Bathurst and Wellington '92), what do we think?

Was it worth dropping Group A & basically dropping any non-Ford or Holden manufacturers for?

What have been the best bits?

What have been the worst bits?

Most/Least memorable moment?

How long can this go on for? Where will we be in 10 years time?

Interesting fact is that in the 10 ATCC's held to the current rules, there have only been 4 champs, Skaife (94,00,01,02), Lowndes (96,98,99), Seton (93,97) and Bowe (1995).

[Dazz]

It's interesting though that the trend of few winners is not related to only the V8 supercar period

Group A gave us between '85 and '92 4 winners.
Richards(85,87,90,91), Johnson(88,89), Francevic(86), Skaife(92).

Group C between '73 and '84 gave us 5 winners.
Moffat(73,76,77,83), Brock(74,78,80), Johnson(81,82,84) Bond(75), Morris(79).

I tend to believe that to a certain extent, regardless of the cars and the rules, the best team/driver combo in each era has taken the majority of the wins. Some years (91,92) some teams had a damn good car, but still had to be the best to win, it doesn't just come automatically.

I can see the series needing to do some hard work to keep it going, as there appears to be little bit by little bit a lot of unease about certain things, and if not addressed these could become a major issue.

Was it worth dropping Group A for V8's, I think so. Lets be honest, international group A really died at the end of '92 anyway, with each country going their own way, and I don;t see why following the rest of the world is the answer.

Lets face it, out of all of the championships, our local product has done as well as any other, and probably better than most, so it can't be all bad.

[f1manoz]

Going the V8 route was the best idea any Australian motorsport council ever decided on. The category has grown enormously in the past decade, as has it's popularity, the budgets and the numbers of competitors.

Hope it continues...

[Amaroo Park]

Originally posted by f1manoz
Going the V8 route was the best idea any Australian motorsport council ever decided on.

It was more of a Mike Raymond decision than a CAMS one. Truth be know if Cams had had there way through Schenken and John Keefe we would be talking about 2lt racing at the moment

It was more of a Mike Raymond decision than a CAMS one. Truth be know if Cams had had there way through Schenken and John Keefe we would be talking about 2lt racing at the moment

Its just as well things turned out as they did. Super Touring is more expensive than V8s and without factory support forget about winning races.

V8s has seen a massive growth in quality fields with around two seconds usually covering the grid. It is a far more even platform now than in the Group C/A days.

And look at the crowd support, merchandising etc. I can remmeber going to touring car and endurance rounds in the 80s where crowds were nowhere near the sizes we have today.

[alfasud]

I miss the Group A and Group C days when you actually saw different cars racing. The only real problem was the unchecked power outputs of the Group A Turbo Evolution cars. A modified set of Group A rules, maybe banning (or restricting) Turbo and 500 evolution models and possibly allowing some type of local homologation of the Falcon, could have continued in use for many years.

As Dazz points out, having a single car type (two different badges) format doesn't change a lot when it comes down to which teams win the races (4 V8 champs, 4 Group A champs and 5 for Group C).

I continue to watch Bathurst, but only because it's probably one of the 10 best tracks in the world, not because I like the current format.

Yes crowds are bigger than 10 years ago, but you can say that about F1 too..... and I'm not sure people are so happy with the rules in that series. The crowds in Aussie touring cars would still be larger (than 10 years ago) if it was Group A or Group C based.

[silvervsix]

The v8s are great and have made a big impact on a larger audience but if they are not careful they will fall in a big heap quickly. With parity, with the franchises, with races meeting getting dropped and ignoring the grass roots of the sport V8’s still have a long way to go before they really become a great series.

They only survive on the Ford Holden thing if that even went then the series would lose its shine.

[Morris 1100]

Group A only needed a change in the way the turbo engines were equated to the N/A engines.

[DNQ]

V8 Supercar is a great theory, shame they've buggered up some avenues of it, example castrating the 1000 into a series of sprints, letting TRW run five cars...oh wait, I am ranting again.

V8's are the best national tin-top series on the planet.

[kmchow]

So racer69, are you hinting that V8 Supercar has reached the 10 year expiry limit and the rules should be rewritten like ST and hopefully F1?? I think a simple change would be to allow OHC engines to race. This way, we could see Mitsubishi, Toyota and perhaps even Honda racing.

Nascar, V8's American cousin, seems to slowly, slowly heading down that path. Rumor has it that a Toyota (with a OHC V8) will certainly make it to the Nascar Craftsman Truck series by '04.

[Amaroo Park]

Originally posted by kmchow
So racer69, are you hinting that V8 Supercar has reached the 10 year expiry limit and the rules should be rewritten like ST

Now that would be a quick way to kill touring Cars in Australia

[racer69]

Originally posted by kmchow
So racer69, are you hinting that V8 Supercar has reached the 10 year expiry limit and the rules should be rewritten like ST and hopefully F1??

Wasn't thinking that originally, i just noticed that the class is in it's 10th year. Having said that though i do think that the rules are in need of a freshen up.

I've never really been a fan of the formula, only two makes and so on, especially now that with all these common parts and so on coming in they are not really going to be Touring Cars anymore, but silouette racers. but it has worked so far, but these rules can't last forever.

With new manufacturers, i'm all for it, but only if the race car is comparable to the road cars, i'm not for FWD Toyota's or Mitsubishi's turned into RWD V8s running. A second class would be ok to.

As the way the rules are now, they are probably the best set of regs in the world.

A certain head figure of the class affects my support as well :;

[alfasud]

Originally posted by kmchow
....I think a simple change would be to allow OHC engines to race. This way, we could see Mitsubishi, Toyota and perhaps even Honda racing.

Not to mention BMW.

There was a recent article on HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) where they asked "What car would you have instead of an HSV?". 25 percent said "a BMW".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...toryID=2999340

So it would seem natural that it's natural competitor should race in the same class. But alas, those rear wheel drive BMW's come with OHC so under the current rules can't be allowed to race. Why not allow the BMW M5 to race against an OHC Ford Falcon V8 (Ford have one in the Mustang) and an OHC Holden/Chev V8 (the Corvette had one of those a few years back, didn't it?)?

Well I guess the problem is, that the BMW might win races, so GM/Ford will lobby against it.

I remember the days when Brock/Moffat/Grice etc took the Group A Commodore around the world and were quite competitive in Group A ETCC races. These days they seem to be scared of a bit of competition appearing in their back yard.

[rocket]

dont know if the vette had a ohc. why would they still be using the gen 3 if they had a ohc

[alfasud]

Originally posted by rocket
dont know if the vette had a ohc. why would they still be using the gen 3 if they had a ohc

The DOHC 32-valve V8 was used in the ZR-1 Corvette. I guess they went back to the pushrod V8 because it was cheaper than the limited production ZR-1 engine.
http://www.ranchochevy.com/chevrolet_zr1_lt5.html

I don't think they make the ZR-1 engine any more, but GM do make the Northstar DOHC 32-valve V8.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpower...apps/nstar.htm
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpower...ews/press9.htm

Not sure what engine is used in the DTM Opel, but I'm reasonably sure it's GM DOHC 32-valve V8.

[Buckshot]

DTM V8s are only 4.5ltr though.

[racer69]

I'm not sure on the capacities, but i know that when the DTM restarted in 2000 the engine used in the Opel's was the Oldsmobile Aurora engine from the IRL, bored out from 4 to 4.5ltrs i guess.

[Mattracer]

V8 Supercars was created as a reaction against the negative aspects of Group A which were an open cheque book policy and manufacturers got involved in a "boutique" way (to quote Skaife). Basically the Sierra RS 500 was a quantum leap ahead of everything before it and Godzilla was just the same, making the RS 500 "obsolete". There were two works Nissans and a "customer car" of Mark Gibbs (whatever happened to...) Anyway the series ultimately failed (in Australia at least) because the crowds couldn't relate to the cars and there weren't enough of them to promote close racing. Personally, I found the Group A era fascinating from an engineering standpoint and really enjoyed seeing the awesome power of the RS 500. The Sierras were the most spectacular cars to watch though the current cars mean more to me as an Australian motorist. I remember when the V8 category first began, a walk through the pits was almost a let down as the bonnets were never lifted because of the fear of prying eyes from other teams. As a "parity formula" the class has been more entertaining and has broader mass-market appeal. One team now dominates just as in the last years of the Group A era (Nissan). Racing is better but the class is set up around parity and Group A was not yet somehow the result is the same. Money talks. HRT is spectacularly good, and Mark Skaife is the country's leading driver but how much longer will it go for if things stay as they are? Haven't we been here before?