|
|||||||||||
|
|||||||||||
22 Oct 2008, 09:15 (Ref:2318130) | #1 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
performance benchmark for pre 66 FIA cars
this is really an evolvement from Terry's excellant thread on what car you would like. I have assumed only cars eligible (and likely to finish) the 6 Hour at Spa as this is a destination race for many....
what I am interested in is the expected optimum time for a legal car and then try and assess relative value. For example a legal MGB can probably do Spa in 3.12? a Mustang 3.07? a 911 in 3.08? I would be really interested in people's view as I would be fascinated in the value against performance as that can then illustrate the "underpriced" cars or perhaps that should be less overpriced! My guess is that MGB's, Griffiths, Ti Super's will come out well in this but I am interested to see what else does... |
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 10:50 (Ref:2318185) | #2 | |||
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 37,600
|
Quote:
Not strictly on topic but if you look at the times you assume as "legal" and then compare them to times set by later Gp 1 "legal" cars you'll see there is little difference all of which suggests to me that the rule makers have got it about right. Although I didn't achieve it this year, I'm certain my car is capable of a 3.09 (ish) time and indeed there was a car (which I considered to be "legal") that achieved that time. As to pre 66 I'm not familiar with many of the models available other than to watch them but I do think Galaxies doing 3:14 are about as fast as they'll go because you really can't steer or indeed stop them. So for me there is little value. A Falcon or (that Lincoln version - Roger) seems to be a good bet but they take some driving to get the best out of them, none the less reasonably good value if the rules are followed. Let's also not forget that your benchmark suffers because many go there just to say "I've raced at Spa", in other words the element of competion comes second to driving the circuit. |
|||
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
22 Oct 2008, 10:57 (Ref:2318192) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
sure and I am more interested in cars running in the 6 Hour rather than sprint as it gives some idea asto the realistic performance rather than sprint times (in U2TC I think a GTA did 3.02 or something incredible yet in 6 Hour its unlikely to get better than 3.10)
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 11:17 (Ref:2318205) | #4 | ||
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 37,600
|
Well on that basis the 911 is definitely a good bet. I don't think there's anything in that class to touch them.
Indecently well developed E Types would also appear to be good value. |
||
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
22 Oct 2008, 11:23 (Ref:2318210) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
at over 100k is the E Type still an obvious buy (and I love them) but agree about 911s (although in days gone buy people used to ignore them saying that they were too slow if legal......)
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 11:32 (Ref:2318218) | #6 | ||
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 37,600
|
Fair comment but it seems that if you want to win you need a well sorted E Type so the value is in what result you want to achieve.
|
||
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
22 Oct 2008, 11:44 (Ref:2318233) | #7 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 94
|
Once more, curiosity wins: what tyres are allowed nowadays for the 6hr? and how much has the lap time changed by for the historics with the circuit mods this season?
|
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 11:51 (Ref:2318242) | #8 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,478
|
Quote:
Mercury Comet Cyclone - a big old boat, but boy did it go! 3.03 I think was my best time and I'd never sat in the thing before. Very impressed. Imagine if there was someone good at the wheel! Now that sort of thing is serious bang for the buck! |
|||
|
22 Oct 2008, 11:53 (Ref:2318243) | #9 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,478
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
22 Oct 2008, 11:53 (Ref:2318244) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
Mike you can run Avons or Dunlops.... the thinking is that Avons will not last 6 hours in the dry and therefore any lap time advantage is disapated by a new set being fitted...
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 12:05 (Ref:2318258) | #11 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 94
|
Ok, so guessing the lap times discussed are on the Avons?
|
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 12:16 (Ref:2318264) | #12 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
actually I presumed Dunlops...
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 12:57 (Ref:2318297) | #13 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 9,718
|
I think your times are optimistic at best Simon
especially if the cars are A legal, B sensibly prepared ( ie money no object) and C, driven by average amateurs like us! |
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 13:58 (Ref:2318339) | #14 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
well someone give me some colour!
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 14:04 (Ref:2318342) | #15 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 9,718
|
look at period lap times, add some for driver deficiencies and take same off for the fact that modern historics are faster than in period as they're over tuned and prepared.
genuinely period cars are hopelessly outpaced today so there is no modern benchmark, and as the last 4 years banter and subsequent conclusions have proved, there won't ever be either. |
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 14:07 (Ref:2318346) | #16 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,676
|
so in short this is a pointless thread - lets close it then!
|
||
__________________
Borrowed money is only credit in a bull market - its debt in a bear market |
22 Oct 2008, 14:28 (Ref:2318364) | #17 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,853
|
Why close a thread that could turn out to be a really interesting one on pre 66 cars.
Three points come to mind,A} B lap of a 3.12,absolutely possible on dry Avons,I did consistant 13s[2004] on what turned out to be wets [sport] and could not make out what was wrong until after the race,then looked at the tyres!! I had been given the wrong set,my fault,should have checked before I left the shop. B} A set of Avons will easily do six hours plus a couple of sprint races. C}Pretty certain that you can run any road tyre as long as the minimum aspect is 70series.[We were forced into this the first time Joe,Chris and Whiz did it in the Griff,being appointed "team manager" I thought it a good idea to read the regs on the Tuesday before we left,having read them and discovered we only had 60series and there was not enough time to get a set of Avons,Joe got some 70s from his local depot and we used them!. Another thing is that a proper B will live with a legal 911,proven at Spa and Nurburgring! My car will do 3.08s on 4year old 008s Whizzo would confirm that our times were 1 10th different. Last edited by terence; 22 Oct 2008 at 14:33. |
||
__________________
Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Oct 2008, 14:38 (Ref:2318371) | #18 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,478
|
Quote:
On what? Certainly not on a Cobra, E-type or anything else big, fast, heavy..... |
|||
|
22 Oct 2008, 14:45 (Ref:2318374) | #19 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,853
|
Quote:
I thought Simon was reffering to a B Roger,We did see one set do the whole 6hrs on Joes second win in the other Griff though.As for something really heavy,Mustang,Corvette probably not as far as the leaners are concerned. |
|||
__________________
Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Oct 2008, 15:59 (Ref:2318418) | #20 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 94
|
3:12 with radials sounds feasible enough to me - but therein lies part of the problem - opening up the tyre regulations will clearly lend performance to some cars more than others, ie those that are shod with Avons/whatever as opposed to CR65. Is it not better to compare all cars on the proper period tyre, or for the cars that really cannot use a cross ply, apply some kind of performance-balancing? Or am I just looking for trouble here..?
|
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 16:07 (Ref:2318421) | #21 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,853
|
Personally Mike I think we should ALL be using Histo's come rain or shine no matter what the car.That way there are no grumbles over who runs what,it works in HSCC so why not the Six hour?.As for the B,that type of tyre is really not so much slower,gives better gearing for the Blanchimont blast and Kemmel.
Last edited by terence; 22 Oct 2008 at 16:10. |
||
__________________
Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Oct 2008, 17:30 (Ref:2318464) | #22 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 94
|
Agree completely - and the extra fun to be had sliding around on crossplies is worth it alone. Why did Spa go the route of mixed tyres? - you'll know better than I but thought Historic FIA and VdeV also only used Dunlop CR65?
|
|
|
22 Oct 2008, 19:45 (Ref:2318539) | #23 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,478
|
Quote:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ppK_2006_a.pdf |
|||
|
22 Oct 2008, 20:05 (Ref:2318549) | #24 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,853
|
Quote:
I still think that putting us all on CR65s would even it out a bit,they are good enough for the E-Types so must be good enough for everyone. |
|||
__________________
Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
23 Oct 2008, 07:00 (Ref:2318780) | #25 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 9,718
|
Dunlops only IMO
If not just to preserve increasingly scarce and expensive bodyshells modern rubber tears 50's/60's monocoques to bits, we also see nasty accidents involving road sports/ GT type cars when they're running on Yokahomas etc, too much grip for the car and its relative safety |
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Pre '66 Saloons - British GP Support | Andrew Kitson | Historic Racing Today | 400 | 16 Jul 2008 07:57 |
Brands GP circuit race for FIA pre 66 tin tops | simon drabble | Historic Racing Today | 5 | 19 Apr 2006 11:04 |