Just how good are our V8SUPERCARS?

[louonline]

Is there any comparable class (or very similar) to our V8’s in other countries and if so how would we stack up against them?
I was thinking of a 24h challenge race.
Us against them so to speak.
We have the track, we have the talent but have we got the cars?

[TSR]

Yeh NASCAR, that how AVESCO are going to end up running our series just like NASCAR.

[naughtymutt]

DTM is much better, cars actually pass each other

[louonline]

Originally posted by TSR
Yeh NASCAR, that how AVESCO are going to end up running our series just like NASCAR.

OK from the sound of your post I get the feeling you are not particularly fond of NASCAR but putting that aside for the moment, how do you think our supercars would stack up against them and how do you feel about such a race?

[louonline]

Originally posted by naughtymutt
DTM is much better, cars actually pass each other

How do you think our supercars would stack up against them and how do you feel about such a race?

[mixxer]

Originally posted by naughtymutt
DTM is much better, cars actually pass each other

Naughtymutt,

The DTM struggle to get more than 20 cars at any race.

Of those 20 odd cars, in qualifying your lucky if the top 12 are within a sec of each other unless its on a mickey mouse circuit with a track length of around 2KM's.

When the race finishes its no better either, the top 10 finishers are on average covered by the best part of a minute.

Race distances are only 150Km with 1 race only over the weekend.

10 Rounds in total.

What it is, is different to the V8's, but thats all its certainly not any better.

[twig]

So you aren't looking at the politics of it all, just the racing and what sort of comparitive pace you would get from our cars. Well, compared to the ETCC and DTM boys, the V8s aren't exactly an engineering marvel. I wouldn't say they are ony designed to be damn hard to drive - but they don't act anything like, or are as fast as the DTM cars - which are far lighter.

[mixxer]

DTM specs - 1050 kgs and 490 HP or there abouts.

[iconic]

i like the btcc for the racing and passing. i think the standards in the btcc are a bit lower than here, a fair tap mid-corner seems to be the norm there. but given those cars are FF it's not too bad

[racer69]

In terms of racing against other categories, there is nothing to race against.

DTM cars would be too fast
BTCC and ETCC cars would be too slow
NASCAR's are too different.


As for the racing. DTM and V8s have the sound and the spectacle but the on-track action is pretty sad. BTCC and ETCC can provide good racing, but the cars lack the sound and appeal.

[cavvy]

....immaterial really, but Ingall did 319 down Conrod a few years back in the Tony Southwell Nascar. The V8 Supercars don't get to 300.
Braking for the Chase, now that is a different matter

[malarky]

That's gearing, not a natural top speed. Due to the restrictive gearing placed on Supercar's, theoretically they won't go any faster than they do now. Most are on the rev limit in sixth before the chase as is.

Prior to the restriction on diffs and gear ratios (they used to have a range of choices), I think Seton got an EL up to 299km/h down Conrod. Now it's around 292 to 294 k's I think.

Today, I'd suggest without the gearing limitations you'd see 310 or 315 k's down Conrod out of the top Supercars.

NASCAR's last about 3 laps at the mountain before their brakes give up (ask Jim Richards).

And the DTM cars are fast, but at around 450 000 Euros each (that's close to a million AUS $ dollars), they may be just a tad expensive to run out here...

V8 Supercars, pound for pound, represent the fastest, closest touring car racing in the world (in my view)...

[Just Do It!]

V8 Supercars are the real deal!

As Malarky says, gear them better and they'll keep on accelerating. Was it a DJR car that did 306 or 307 km/h down Conrod a few years back?

The gearing issue for Bathurst needs addressing. Being on the limit for that long is just stupid.

Let's hope Bathurst 2005 sees a new lap record, not because Murf got ideal conditions again - though we were proud last time he did - but because the regulations allow for a car that can accelerate as it was intended!

[mmciau]

malarky and Just Do It!!

You're bad lads - bringing up the subject of restrictive gearing after icfp2297 tried to counter all my comments re 7500rpm and rev limiters!!

Mike

[malarky]

I remember the bad old days of Group A when the VN's used to ring the poor old Holden pushrod V8's to 8500rpm and beyond.

I recall very well Mezera buzzing one of Larry's Brock Mobil 1 Commodore's to 9600 in practice in 91' at the mountain.

I still have the broken valve spring to prove it!

[louonline]

can someone explain what exactly are DMT cars please?

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by mixxer
Naughtymutt,

The DTM struggle to get more than 20 cars at any race.

Of those 20 odd cars, in qualifying your lucky if the top 12 are within a sec of each other unless its on a mickey mouse circuit with a track length of around 2KM's.

When the race finishes its no better either, the top 10 finishers are on average covered by the best part of a minute.

Race distances are only 150Km with 1 race only over the weekend.

10 Rounds in total.

What it is, is different to the V8's, but thats all its certainly not any better.

DTM's had some pearler racing this season. Garry Paffett has really livened the series up this year, there have been a couple of great races. Yes they do race fewer races. However they do pack them in, getting Clipsal 500 size crowds at almost every meeting.

But DTM vs V8Supercar head to head? It'd be a non-event. DTMs are considerably faster than V8Supercar. To compare: DTM's main support act is the Formula 3 Euroseries. DTM cars record similar lap times to EF3. Here in Australia our Formula 3 cars are measurably fasterthan V8Supercar at each stop. And Australian Formula 3 is a dinky privateer series compared to the funding and talent lavished on the F3 Euroseries.

[Woolley]

Very different series all.

DTM = Detsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft, or German Touring Car Champinship in Forum language. Pretty impressive and fast in their own right, and seem fairly robust despite being lightweight carbon on the whole.

NASCAR are horses for courses, IMO the best oval racing to be had, and interesting on their occasional visits to road courses, but not really what they're designed to do.

BTCC are fairly low spec, but very close, not V8 monsters though, nor are ETCC. Again, both are entertaining.

V8 Supercars? Well, haven't seen them in the metal yet (but hoping to put that right next year). We're also lacking TV coverage over here for some reason, which is a shame. An excellent formula, the racing is good, the cars are spectacular, I really enjoy them. So from and outsiders view they're well up there with the other main international series, each of which do what they're intended to do very well. Enjoy it and make the most of a great series.

And please bring them over here for a visit...

[louonline]

Thanks Woolley
"DTM = Detsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft"
LOL what a mouthfull, I think I'll refer to them as DTM
like everyone else!

[mixxer]

Falcadore your comparison with F3 is probably the closest we will ever get to seeing the 2 types on the track together, good stuff, so much better than the dribble that has infested this place recently.

I just dug up some figures and surprisingly enough (for me) the V8's are only approx 1.5 sec slower than our F3 cars around Sandown, but on a more flowing circuit like EC the gap is the best part of 6 secs a lap (outright lap records).

The only full race that I saw of the DTM this year was the Norisring (for those that don't know it its a mickey mouse street circuit approx 2.5 Km) + highlights of the previous rounds on the same DVD (sent by a mate in Europe) and the DTM cars from memory were FASTER (by a few tenths) than the EURO F3 cars.

It still would be an interesting comparison using unchanged spec cars around Bathurst over a 1000k's with the DTM cars being faster over a lap but having a fuel tank approx half the size (65L) plus higher, yep higher, fuel consumption dictating more stops, add to that the X factor of reliability of driveline components around the Mt and you could get a surprise. I reckon the top 10 would be a all DTM affair, depending on how many came over to race, it might even be a top 20 for the DTM boys.

Anyways its all pointless as it would never happen.

All the above doesn't change my opinion of the 2 series though the V8s are closer in qualifying and racing over the full race distance, more rounds and more importantly for the fans they put more cars on the track.

As to the ontrack action from what Ive seen over the last few years the current DTM V8 series is miles away from the 2.5L series they used to run, which truly was the best IMO but obviously (hindsight if it could be bottled you'd make a bundle) was unsustainable due to cost.

Over the last few years they are about the same as the V8s on passing, average driving, SC periods and enforcing their rules not that you'd know that when the all most people here get to see is the 15 min highlight packages sold to various networks, I bet I too could hack together 15 mins of footage showing world class action from any V8 race.

In finishing this long winded post Id like to leave you with this -
the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by mixxer

I bet I too could hack together 15 mins of footage showing world class action from any V8 race.

Thats a big call.
Theres beens some pretty ordinary races.

On the subject though of the taxi's providing closer qualifying times and close racing. They all run identical cars, (the whole point of blueprint). You'd hope they would run close.

[mixxer]

DRT please tell me that you know the 3 types of cars used in the DTM are built to a set specification (ie a blueprint) or do you think they just build what ever they want ?
They for all intents and purposes are the same car built with a lot of common parts along the same lines as our V8s.
No offence but my tip to you is do some research they are not a formula that shows up deficiency's in different designs.

15 mins from any race, easy.
(hey when'd we get the new little icon thingies)

[D.R.T.]

I didnt say anything about DTM. My point was that when speaking about how competitive and amazing it is to have the 5 litre cars so close together, you must take into account the regs

[mixxer]

No probs but what I was inferring was that the DTM cars are built to a "Blueprint" too and the racing isnt as close.

[Hapul]

Originally posted by naughtymutt
DTM is much better, cars actually pass each other

DTM's OK, but the only reason they pass is because they're not usually penalised for punting someone off and they have little median strips and use every last mmm, leaving the brakes nearly pristene.