How to sort a rolled car

[b1ackcr0w]

EP's Threat to Irish Marshalling Thread reminded me of an important issue I think needs resolving. Didn't want to Hijack that thread, so here's a new one.

Basically, it's a call for training on the best/safest way to manually right a car that's rolled onto it's roof or side. Its not always the case that you have enough space or equipment to do this with a wrecker or machinery. Which pretty much means you've got to roll it by hand.

I had to I/C (Hillclimb equivilent of Incident Officer/Observer) one at a Hillclimb recently. I had a full compliment of about 10 marshals and a Rescue Crew, there were quite a number of years experience there. Before we rolled back over, I did ask if anybody had done it before or had done it in training, you never know, any prior experience would have come in handy at that point. All I got was about 15 blank looks and shrugs. Eventually, thanks to the high calibre of ALL who helped (thanks guys and girls), it got sorted quite nicely with little danger. But I was a little bit surprised and concerned that nobody had any grounding on the subject. Done wrong, it's a pretty dangerous thing to do.

Can somebody from BMMC or the clubs put this item on the training agenda please?

[numbersix]

I'm sure I've trained for this at Donnington.
1. Fire marshals all over the place, locked and loaded.
2. After usual driver checks, support his/her head.
3. With Doctor's permission right the car very slowly so as not to jerk the driver using as many marshals as possible but keep the fire marshals on red alert.

[Stuart Hill]

Been there, done that. Just like numbersix, I'm sure I was taught at Donington by people of the calibre of Jim W, Dave P not to mention Jeremy E.

But I have to agree with you, it seems that most marshals these days do not know a safe way to right a car. A "touring" car can be safely done by 6 marshals as long as they are led correctly. This type of action needs a "hands-off" leader to watch-over everyone, but is actually quite safe if done correctly.

Just another example of a "Marshalling" skill that has been lost to the Greater God............ HSE !!

[EvilPumpkin]

We cover controlled roll overs at our National Training day - the rescue unit comes down to run through scenarios with us on it.

[Asp]

Here's a question - how much care should you take in rolling a car back the right way up if the driver is out of car? Granted it's probably anyway, but by just flipping it back over willy nilly (not that anyone would do that) it could cause extra damage to the car plus there's no control whatsoever which is unsafe; but a full controlled roll is probably too much?

[MagnetON]

If the driver is still in the car then our rescue protocol would be:

• Have a crew member (usually the designated medic but this can be changed as all crew are medically certified) enter the car and perform an initial assessment of the driver.
• Based on this assessment and in consultation with the doctor he decision would be made to either roll the car back or extricate from the existing position.
• If the decision is to roll the car back onto the wheels then the crewman will take the necessary positioning to provide full c-spine control as the car is rolled.
• The car will then be gently moved one quarter of the way on to its wheels.
• Second crewman from outside the car will take c-spine control while the "inside man" repositions themselves for the next move.
• Move the car another quarter, this should have the car back on it's wheels, if not then re-position again and repeat until car is back on. Usually there will only be the two quarters but if the car is on its side with the wheels tight in to the tyre-wall/armco then it may have to take the long way back on to four wheels.

The actual moves will take as many marshals as are available and will involve getting the car to the point of "tilt" and then re-positioning as necessary to lower the car as gently as possible.

This technique is practised in rescue training days to use as little as four or five people and is also taught to ground marshals on our national training day where we use a "live" casualty and "inside man" to make the operation as realistic as possible.

As for turning cars when the driver is out. In general, if there's enough bodies around then a bit of care is always good as it's always good practise for if you have to do it with someone in the car!

[Pistonbroke]

Full marks to Midland Hillclimb Championship for including this in annual training day at Prescott a year or two back, albeit with driver out of car.

[flagwaver]

Suggest you get friendly with the recovery guys (& girls), with a lot of recovery units now having hiabs,you can use them as a safety device in some cases.
(I am not suggesting using only a Hiab is some-one is in the car)
Conect a strop to a convinent point, preferably near the engine, connect strop to hiab and provided that the operator can keep a little bit of slack on the arm you have a means of arresting a slip if someone losses grip or slips. Can't be done all the time but if recovery are brifed as to what is required & Provided it can be done safely & won't take to long to set up then it's another option.

[rumblefish]

Like many I am sure, I learned this technique on the job (as it were), only this year (MGF, Lakeside, Oulton), after 8 years of marshaling. Thankfully we had a number of crew who had experienced this before, and could guide us through. The way it was done was quite easy, and fully controlled at all times. However, prior experience would have been useful - have I just missed out on this?

[CombeMarshal]

I had no training on this, but After Tont Doley rolled his 206 at Combe, ending up on it's side (he was out of the car before we even got there!) we decided to get as many Marshals as possible, some one watching over, and a BIG shove later it dropped down nicely.
It went very well, but we had space!
You do need some one to keep watch from a safe distance to make sure the car isn't going to land on any stray Marshals or drivers!

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

I had no training on this, but After Tont Doley rolled his 206 at Combe, ending up on it's side (he was out of the car before we even got there!) we decided to get as many Marshals as possible, some one watching over, and a BIG shove later it dropped down nicely.

Dropping down is what we're trying to avoid. With enough hands on a car you can control the roll after the tipping point, and land the car on it's wheels very gently. There's no need for a BIG shove - it should be 'graceful'. And you'll not be damaging the car further.

[CombeMarshal]

Ah, I should say the car was pretty well 'Altered' anyway and onto soft mud!!!

[Andrew Palmer]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Dropping down is what we're trying to avoid. With enough hands on a car you can control the roll after the tipping point, and land the car on it's wheels very gently. There's no need for a BIG shove - it should be 'graceful'. And you'll not be damaging the car further.

I had a training session in this method of returning a car to its wheels at Mallory. It's is very easy to do with or without a driver in the car and only takes a few people to do it properly. The problem appears that not many others has seen this being carried or trained in this method, so a quick shove does the job and every one can get back to post.

Twice last year I was involved with cars that end up on their sides and the drivers got out un-aided. Both times the IO's said lets push them back on their wheels and get out of here, and when I suggested we lower them gently the team was already pushing so their was no chance of stopping them going over and hitting the deck hard with their wheels. Both times the recovery became a lift instead tow due to damage to the cars.

[chezza]

I haven't been given any training on this type of thing. I wouldn't have any idea about how to go about it.

I think that maybe we should have some training on this type of thing.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by chezza

I haven't been given any training on this type of thing. I wouldn't have any idea about how to go about it.

I think that maybe we should have some training on this type of thing.

It wouldn't take long to go through at a training day - use the cars that Rescue normally cut up in the afternoon (before they get cut up)!
You could roll them down the paddock!

[Pike]

As pistonbroke has said previously the topic of a controlled roll was covered at Prescott a couple of years ago, the trouble is every one who is involved needs to know what is about to happen - when there is fluid of any description leaking out of the car its not always practicable to explain in great detail due to the time factor. All of rescue (certainly Midland anyway) know the theories but you do need to get a lot of bods round the car to do it safely.

In blackcr0w`s particular incident the driver had been extracted before the controlled roll (he was in it for the first uncontrolled!) but care was still taken - in fact the same car was out again racing two weekends later some of which was down to the manner of righting it, also a very nice letter was received from the driver expressing his thanks.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Pike

As pistonbroke has said previously the topic of a controlled roll was covered at Prescott a couple of years ago, the trouble is every one who is involved needs to know what is about to happen - when there is fluid of any description leaking out of the car its not always practicable to explain in great detail due to the time factor.

Hence, make sure all the trainers include it in training 2006! It's a confidence thing - that 3,4,5 of you can control the process - it's not something you believe in till you've done it - then it's second nature. Should have been at Rockingham at the weekend - we had 3 to practice on!