Is the problem Drivers or Cars?

[av8rirl]

I know its about 10 days since Monza but a thought occured to me while I was watching the first half of the race. The racing was very good. There was plenty of passing. All this without any "experienced" drivers in the top 8.

If I remember correctly we had JPM, Kimi, Button, Sato, Trulli, Klein, etc... at the front. All were making passes every lap and the racing was exciting. The "kids" all have something to prove and aren't afraid to hangs their balls out which led to better racing.

So I'm wondering, if we got rid of both Schumachers, Barrichello, DC and the overly experienced drivers (none of whom seem to be willing to pass outside of the pits), would the racing improve??

[Wrex]

Hmmm, I think you will find Schumacher, Barrichello & DC passed more cars than anyone at Monza.

Perhaps you should watch the race again.

[Kirk]

To the question, is it the drivers or cars? I think too many drivers are far too complacent about the entire state of F1 including the cars, electronic aids, tyres aerodynamics, TC, qualifying, circuits ... the list goes on. If more of the drivers were outspoken and showed some genuine passion for their sport, then perhaps they'd be listened to and changes would come forth. Too many YES MEN!! imo

[jj2728]

neither......
it's max mosley, bernie eccelstone, and the fia.....all 3 entities have their heads so far up their collective a**** that unless they do something about the state of f1 that there will be big trouble looming on the horizon.....2.4 litre v-8 engines is NOT a solution....nor are hermann tilke mickey mouse, go-kart, lifeless shards of pavement that pass themselves off as racetracks....the drivers and the teams only follow the rules that are set down...

[BoatOwner]

Originally posted by jj2728
nor are hermann tilke mickey mouse, go-kart, lifeless shards of pavement that pass themselves off as racetracks....

are you talking about sepang, bahrain and shanghai??

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by av8rirl

So I'm wondering, if we got rid of both Schumachers, Barrichello, DC and the overly experienced drivers (none of whom seem to be willing to pass outside of the pits), would the racing improve??

Hmmm. I tend to agree with Wrex. You sure you were watching the same race? As I recall Barichello and Schumacher were down pretty far, and then came back for a 1-2.

[jj2728]

Originally posted by BoatOwner
are you talking about sepang, bahrain and shanghai??

yes, and what he did to hockenheim and whatever other lifeless pieces of dog meat he's come up with......

[Wrex]

Ah yes, Hockenheim. Was'nt that one of the better races this year?

[jj2728]

a good race on a shell of what was once a great track....

[Wrex]

The track had to change, and that had NOTHING to do with tilke. He was the designer of the new track, not the man that made the decision to change it.

Logic is completely lost on some F1 fans.

[Armco Bender]

Monza without the chicanes,no that would be a great track to see again.The 1971 race still makes you go tingley.

[300kph]

Can't really find much to blame on Drivers...I tend to blame the tires and the big gap opened up by team Ferrari over rival teams...either Ferrari has done miracles on their designs and production or the rival teams has done too little to be humbled...How can Williams for example, race a car with a concept that was discarded by others before just to be convinced after more than half of a season that it won't work?...

The only team (IMO) who did a fantastic job this year other than Ferrari is BAR...

[Red]

Wasn't last year's German GP one of the best races of the season too?

[Adam43]

I used to be of the opinion that the drivers didn't help. They took the excuse that it was difficult to overtake so just turned in on a pass. However recently we've seen some decent races (talking over the last few years) and my opinion has changed slightly since the mid '90s.

There are few drivers in the mould of a Gilles or Keke, but some drivers out there know how to overtake, and importantly how to be overtaking. However most aren't as bad as Farina in terms of 'racing'.

av8rirl, I too would like to echo Wrex's point. Those that you cite as being new racers did far less racing than those you cite did not at Monza! The trouble with those experienced (I'll not use the quotation marks) is that they also know how to drive away from those who might try an ill-timed lunge at them.

All were making passes every lap and the racing was exciting.

All? Every lap? You are confused with 1971.
JPM, Kimi, Button, Sato, Trulli, Klein... You say. Well I agree some will have a go, some will do it well too and some, well lets just say I giggled that you included them in your list.

Schumacher, Barrichello and DC can all overtake with the best of them. Monza showed this. Each of them (I would guess) had more overtaking manoeuvres than the six you cite all together.

[spider]

I agree that Tilke has created some circuits just ripe for overtaking, but I can't think of any stunning corners or sections of the track that you watch the cars in awe, or you here the drivers raving about? Would be great to have some real challenging high-speed, contoured, adverse camber corners perhaps that sorts the men from the boys?

As much as it's great seeing under braking overtaking, it would be nice to see the cars and drivers being pushed to the point there is an element of fear - you need that to add to the mystique. Having long straights into hard-stopping second gear hairpins is good for overtaking, and the new circuits need them, but there really should be some big challenging corners to really push the pinnicle of motorsport.

Going back to the question, it is a combination of track, cars, regulations and drivers. The experienced guys will possibly know from their memory banks what is a safe pass, and what is a risky one. In todays regulations, why bother diving past someone light on fuel when you can hold station for a couple of laps until they peel into the pits and then you can stretch your legs and jump past them in the pits? Sato is a great example of someone who will go for a 50/50, but other more experienced drivers won't risk it - causing a high speed precession.

[Dutton]

Not in terms of sheer competitiveness, imo Red, but in terms of being out-right nerve-racking absolutely.

[Red]

Hmm, but that's another discussion altogether. The competitiviness has absolutely nothing to do with Tilke's "Mickey mouse boring kart tracks". And so far, the best "spectacle" was provided on aforementioned Tilke designed circuits. Besides, isn't that what "we" all want? Spectacle at all cost?

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Wrex
The track had to change, and that had NOTHING to do with tilke. He was the designer of the new track, not the man that made the decision to change it.
Logic is completely lost on some F1 fans.

why did the track have to change?....safety purposes?...i think not.....the only LOGIC....as you say was the logic of television....

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Red
Hmm, but that's another discussion altogether. The competitiviness has absolutely nothing to do with Tilke's "Mickey mouse boring kart tracks". And so far, the best "spectacle" was provided on aforementioned Tilke designed circuits. Besides, isn't that what "we" all want? Spectacle at all cost?

no not really, people always say monaco is boring ( and i tend to agree) yet it provided "spectacle".......as did spa, and monza....but i am beginning to think that people are beginning to confuse spectacle with motor racing....

[Cynic]

I think the tracks are a problem, but indirectly. You always hear the drivers complain that there is no grip off-line. I think this is because there simply isn't enough racing over the weekend to get any decent rubber down on the circuit. I was marshalling at Beckets at Silverstone this year, and when we did the track inspection on Sunday I couldn't believe how green the track was. Had it been something like a touring car meeting there would have been a 10-foot wide strip of rubber through the turns. As it was, the track looked the same as it did on the Friday. Get a decent groove on the circuit and then see whether things need changing.

[Red]

Hmm, I kinda forgot to add a tongue in cheeck smilie in my previous post, JJ

[CamF1]

Well, we can certainly sit here blaming everyone but ourselves...

[Glen]

F1 gets more and more "perfect" every season - every race even. Lack of rubber laid-down on a broad line? That's a function of ever increasing accuracy in the science and the craft of driving - and also the extreme softness of modern tyres (the amount of marbles is remarkble - so not only is the track off-line not rubbered, it is also covered in slippery marbles). Hard to overtake under braking - what do you expect when the braking distance (hence time) is so short, and shorter every year?

The drivers are remarkable for being able to keep up with the ever-increasing high standard. Corner G-force has gone up to 6g in certain places - braking distances are virtually halved also.

Both of those phenonema are down to the tyre war (and the parc ferme rules). This is why I am in favour of the FIA proposal for fewer sets of tyres per weekend - harder tyres = less rubber down = less difference between green and rubbered track = fewer pit-stops = bigger braking zones = , well, better.

The arguments on this thread about tracks are ill thought-out and mostly just plain bunkum, as far as I can see. Tilke circuits are specificaly designed to satisfy a lot of different criteria - including better racing and more overtaking. And - they do deliver for the most part (high hopes for China... Bahrain was very good, Hockenheim provides a good race, etc).

Coming hard on the heels of two fabulous races with heaps of overtaking I find it hard to appreciate just exactly what the problem is. the Ferraris are still dominant - so what?

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Glen

The arguments on this thread about tracks are ill thought-out and mostly just plain bunkum, as far as I can see. Tilke circuits are specificaly designed to satisfy a lot of different criteria - including better racing and more overtaking. And - they do deliver for the most part (high hopes for China... Bahrain was very good, Hockenheim provides a good race, etc).
Coming hard on the heels of two fabulous races with heaps of overtaking I find it hard to appreciate just exactly what the problem is.

yes, 2 fabulous races at 2 fabulous tracks, spa and monza.....i'll add another word to my previous descriptions of tilke tracks: STERILE....
bunkum?....well that's just my humble opinion...

[Glen]

Malaysia, Bahrain, new Hockenheim have all produced good races and overtaking - I agree that they don't have the extra qualities of history and mystique that Monza and Spa have, but I disagree that simply because a track is older it will produce good racing. OK, so Tilke tracks sometimes have a certain sterile quality - but that is as much a function of their being brand new as anything else.

What you don't say is how you might improve the tracks - enlighten us if you will/can.