How much faster could GTE be?

[Danathar]

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?

I guess how much faster depends on the track.

I think all of the current GTE cars carry ballast, so removing that could gain time. I think they are also all restricted on the engine in some way - either through sonic restrictors or limits on boost, so that could be removed as well. And finally, you could give them all Carbon brakes which would improve speeds braking distance.

I think those things would all be pretty cheap to do for teams, but I'm sure all those things would lead to costs I'm not accounting for.

It would be fun to see a team do these types of things and do a few test sessions like the 919 Farewell Tour.

[TF110]

I think they could get close to lmp2 pace, within a couple seconds per lap at shorter tracks, but not faster. They are too heavy even without ballast and the aero is a ways off the lmp's.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?

I'd also question, who of the CURRENT GTE manufacturers actually wanted to make GTE the top class? I don't recall hearing that statement or claim from any of the builders at all, fan desires maybe but actual regulations??

[TF110]

Looks like BMW was one if you read the article on sc365, but I think that's a reach by the writer. The dsc interview makes much more sense that they are satisfied with the m8 and being in a bop class.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I'd also question, who of the CURRENT GTE manufacturers actually wanted to make GTE the top class? I don't recall hearing that statement or claim from any of the builders at all, fan desires maybe but actual regulations??

BMW, apparently....

[canaglia]

Good question, gte are in the 1220-1280kg range, ballasted due bop and regs.
Guess is quite possible to cut 100kg to make a min. weight about 1100-1150kg.

About power, no doubts that turbo cars and corvette 5.5 can reach a reliable 600hp from engine, with a 110L fuel tank to keep the same 62-65 minutes stint lenght.

Considering porsche 911 this year achieved 3.47.5, 0.1s faster than 2008 C6R (1150kg x 600hp x >800Nm). Just cutting some weight and giving more power, very likely 3.45 would be the LM target.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Considering porsche 911 this year achieved 3.47.5, 0.1s faster than 2008 C6R (1150kg x 600hp x >800Nm). Just cutting some weight and giving more power, very likely 3.45 would be the LM target.

2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Chiana

2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner

yeah C6R had worse tyres and a caveman aero compared to new gte cars, but had about 80hp more, about 100kg less and roughly +400Nm to compensate.

You know, old GT2 cars had a standard 1245kg min. weight because had to stay as far as possible from GT1, but now that GTE is top GT class, why keep that weight? it's simply senseless.
I may understand that increasing power from about 520hp to 600hp may lead to reliability and fuel miliage issues, but why these cars can't simply be lighter?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner

I think Porsche curves are the best place to look for lap time drops. I don't think we're talking about multiple seconds though, but surely there is more to it. I think the repave, modern tires, better aero and gains in other technical areas of the car can explain the difference. The new GTE's are also pretty close at Spa too. A 2:12.4 by the Ford GT is about a couple seconds away from the GT1 record.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?

Short answer: Very.

Proper answer: They already spend Prototype money -most of the GTE programs cost well over the budget of an LMP2 team- so you're probably looking at similar costs to what the new LMP1 rules are meant to be around in order to get them to that sort of speed.

The thing is, it's not as simple as just turning up the engine power, removing weight, and using carbon brakes. The aero will have to redesigned to maximize the aero efficiency(and being limited to the roadcar base will make this QUITE a headache), the chassis will have to be strengthened(to be able to effectively meet P1-level performance AND safety needs), and this all leads to countless smaller things that need to be tweaked.

It's enough of an effort that even if it comes out a LITTLE cheaper than what "Hypercar P1" is targeting, many manufacturers might just prefer to put the resources into something new.

The fact that upgraded GTE cars were apparently proposed and shot down during negotiations would lend credence to this - it's either far more expensive than what's been approved, or the cost savings aren't enough to make it appealing over a brand new vehicle to most of those involved.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Short answer: Very.

Proper answer: They already spend Prototype money -most of the GTE programs cost well over the budget of an LMP2 team- so you're probably looking at similar costs to what the new LMP1 rules are meant to be around in order to get them to that sort of speed.

The thing is, it's not as simple as just turning up the engine power, removing weight, and using carbon brakes. The aero will have to redesigned to maximize the aero efficiency(and being limited to the roadcar base will make this QUITE a headache), the chassis will have to be strengthened(to be able to effectively meet P1-level performance AND safety needs), and this all leads to countless smaller things that need to be tweaked.

It's enough of an effort that even if it comes out a LITTLE cheaper than what "Hypercar P1" is targeting, many manufacturers might just prefer to put the resources into something new.

The fact that upgraded GTE cars were apparently proposed and shot down during negotiations would lend credence to this - it's either far more expensive than what's been approved, or the cost savings aren't enough to make it appealing over a brand new vehicle to most of those involved.

With lmp2 capped to about half milion + gibson leasing, gte is the most expensive class aside lmp1. New gte got and passed old GT1 performances and got close to old GT1 price tags too....
>750k € a car and work teams budget over 10 mln € a season.

Made it clear that ferrari, porsche, bmw, aston aluminium frames won't ever achieve the same stiffness of a carbon monocoque, you can cut weight and add hp but would never proper turn a gte in a real prototype.

To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.
Open carbon tub joint by a rollbar, basic aero specs parts wing/splitter/diffuser with some room for further development, 100kg/h free bespoke turbo or NA engines, 90-100L fuel tank, 2MJ front hybrid and each manufacturer can build the car it wishes.

The whole package should not be much more expensive than a gt500/dtm

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Danathar

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?

Simple answer to a simple question. As fast as the rules allow.

[gsmith2424]

Originally Posted by Chiana

2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner

Also don't forget that the GTS/GT1 cars had carbon brakes while the GTE cars have steel brakes.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by canaglia

To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.

The problem lies on which manufacturer will be on-board with the Class One regulations. They might be scared of committing it if the costs are not worth it other than BMW, Audi, and the big 3 Japanese manufacturers.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

With lmp2 capped to about half milion + gibson leasing, gte is the most expensive class aside lmp1. New gte got and passed old GT1 performances and got close to old GT1 price tags too....
>750k € a car and work teams budget over 10 mln € a season.

Made it clear that ferrari, porsche, bmw, aston aluminium frames won't ever achieve the same stiffness of a carbon monocoque, you can cut weight and add hp but would never proper turn a gte in a real prototype.

To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.
Open carbon tub joint by a rollbar, basic aero specs parts wing/splitter/diffuser with some room for further development, 100kg/h free bespoke turbo or NA engines, 90-100L fuel tank, 2MJ front hybrid and each manufacturer can build the car it wishes.

The whole package should not be much more expensive than a gt500/dtm

The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes. Except not spec chassis (which is dumb), no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it, more power, a hybrid, slightly more weight etc. A current GTE wouldn't be anywhere near a match for the hypercar rules or a GT500. Like you said, they'd need to be carbon chassis'd. Maybe the Ford GT could get close but that'd probably need serious work too. It wouldn't be worth it financially imo.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes ... no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it

The NSX GT500 is still mid-engined.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes. Except not spec chassis (which is dumb), no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it, more power, a hybrid, slightly more weight etc. A current GTE wouldn't be anywhere near a match for the hypercar rules or a GT500. Like you said, they'd need to be carbon chassis'd. Maybe the Ford GT could get close but that'd probably need serious work too. It wouldn't be worth it financially imo.

Agree, to have a spec chassis is quite dumb, but actually don't think dallara/ligier/oreca lmp2 chassis are so different each other following the same mandatory technical regs, so guess it's not a big issue, it's all about money saving.
Any info about a gt500/dtm car price ?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Agree, to have a spec chassis is quite dumb, but actually don't think dallara/ligier/oreca lmp2 chassis are so different each other following the same mandatory technical regs, so guess it's not a big issue, it's all about money saving.

IMO, the tub the one area of a car where going spec is a very good idea - it brings costs down without compromising safety and still leaves a massive amount of the car open for design by the manufacturers.

Assuming the tub is designed correctly, that is(which the Class One tub seems to be).

Any info about a gt500/dtm car price ?

Much like in GTE, the DTM manufacturers keep that information close to the chest, but the only source I've ever been able to find that lists a price of one million euros(about $1,130,000 USD). I honestly don't doubt it as I'm told the costs to run were reduced by "around half" when the current chassis rules were implemented, and I'd heard talk of price tags just over 2 million USD at the time.

But this should all be taken with a grain of salt, as DTM is only just for 2019 switching to the new engines, and I've heard claims of savings upwards of 100K USD with the turbo fours in GT500. So the numbers are still quite....questionable, to say the least.

[canaglia]

honda achieved to win super gt with a carbon tub designed for FR layout....

giving for granted that anybody will be so fool again to design a FR lmp-like again, a spec cockpit wider carbon monocoque should fit good for the new class.
Making each manufacturer build it for their own hypercar, it should also appear less "spec".


1mln € + a 2MJ hybrid (that however shouldn't be so expensive by now) you get a lower 1.5mln€ for sure. A great deal considering that old lmp1 like lola B12 and ARX-03 were over 2mln€ a car and 0 chances aginst manufacturers.

Hope to recall well, about 10-12 years ago, a maserati MC12 gt1 (not even brand new perhaps) price was about 1.2 mln€

[Deleted]

^ Price comparisons to the olden days aren't fair without

A) Adjusting to inflation
B) Taking the global economical situation into consideration

Anyway, if I had to choose between pretentious quasi spec class and blatant BoP class, I'd still take the first (even though that's like choosing whether you want to eat paper rather than living maggot soup), but I think the real disgust comes when you have both

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Chiana

^ Price comparisons to the olden days aren't fair without

A) Adjusting to inflation
B) Taking the global economical situation into consideration

Anyway, if I had to choose between pretentious quasi spec class and blatant BoP class, I'd still take the first (even though that's like choosing whether you want to eat paper rather than living maggot soup), but I think the real disgust comes when you have both

Aside ginetta, guess nowadays private lmp1 are a bit cheaper just because are basically lmp2 with some different aero parts. I don't include engine leasing because very likely AER P60 is cheaper than gibson used in lmp2.


All gt1 cars were in the 1 mln € range back in old days.

Insane costs during global economical crisis = death

[TF110]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

The NSX GT500 is still mid-engined.

I'm aware. I said it hampers them because the cars were designed to be fr not mr so that hurts the nsx in the cooling department.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

I'm aware. I said it hampers them because the cars were designed to be fr not mr so that hurts the nsx in the cooling department.

And yet they still overcame it to take the title this year. A shining example of how good engineers find a way.

[tjh8402]

Simple answer is as fast as the Ford would go unrestricted, as that is easily the raciest fastest car currently competing in the class. the problem and challenge would be that if you eliminated the BoP and let the cars run unrestricted, everyone would follow the Ford model and design cars that are primarily racecars and then build the homologation specials for the road, similar to what you saw back in the late 90s. You'd also see costs skyrocket like they did in the mid 2000s GT1. Sadly, take the reigns off and someone somewhere will decide that they are willing to spend whatever it takes to win.