When should mika 'help' coulthard?

[economy_waffle]

im absolutely certain that haki should help his team-mate win the championship as coulthard has done so many times before, rubens has already been a victim of team orders, and i think it is time for mika to swallow his pride and help dc out.

[Damon]

To be able to help DC, Mika would have to finish the race as well, somthing that seems to be alluding him this year .

[EERO]

I don't think Hakkinen will have any trouble with stepping up and helping DC. He knows how much Coulthard has helped him in the past and Mika is a fair and decent guy.

[economy_waffle]

we all know that you dont have to finish a race to take part in team orders...it has been done so many times b4:

Hakkinenn in 1st, coulthard in 2nd...TGF in 3rd, DC holds up TGF enough for Hakkinenn to be 20-30 seconds in fron comfortably in time for his pit stops.

These are the kind of tema orders that im talking about bcos i dont beleive in the kind of team orders implemented by ferrari in austria

[bghaw]

Personally, i think "team orders" defeat the purpose of a "driver's" championship. (But i'm sure neither Todt, the midget with the NapoleFerrari nor Mclaren care about that) However, since F1 is essentially a team sport and there is also a constructor's championship, i feel that each outfit has every right to give themselves the utmost advantage (given they abide by the rules set by the FIA) in terms of winning races.

With all that aside, I have no doubt that the Flying Finn, who's manner and attitude is much to be admired, will assist block-head, err, DC, in winning as many races as he possibly can.

GO MCLAREN!!!!!

[Ralf's Girl]

Call me a stick in the mud, but I don't think Hakkinen should help DC. I have a feeling that McLaren will not make him help - Ron Dennis has said many times that team orders do not play a part in his team, and let's not forget who the favourite is around there.

If Hakkinen does choose to help DC I think it will be of his own accord. DC hasn't helped Hakkinen many times due to team orders (we mustn't forget that Australia 98 was an agreement that had absolutely nothing to do with the team) and I don't believe team orders will be used on Hakkinen unless absolutely crucial. McLaren are not about to start flinging team orders around Ferrari-style.

[Alan Jones]

NOW !!
Ferrari are using them and that's all the reason Mika needs

[Valve Bounce]

It really depends what we mean by "help". It is obvious that the McLaren has an extra 4 laps on a full tank to Ferrari's so far this year. This lends itself to a very good blocking tactic after the Ferrari goes in to it's pit stop, as the second McLaren can then slow the Ferrari down sufficiently for the lead McLaren to take the lead after its fuel stop.
I don't like this sort of team orders, as I have made this clear in my thread Sinister team orders. However, if that is what it takes, it will be interesting to see if McLaren will use this tactic.

[JeremySmith]

Why delay the inevitable? IMO the only reason that McLaren do not want to issue team orders is because Ron Dennis has said, and recently, that team orders are not used at McLaren..BTW what about last season then Mr Dennis!

[mac]

At the moment we aren't even halfway through the season. If DC does a Mika and fails to finish a string of races, TGF fails to finish a few, and Mika starts winning a couple of races - Mika is back in the championship. Until it is absolutely impossible - Mika should not be following team orders. Besides, I would find it hard to believe Mika could help DC as TGF (not to mention Barrichello and the Williams) is always in front of Mika on the grid.

[JeremySmith]

As much as I realy like Mika Hakkinen..It's not lQQking good for him this season..He might as well support his "Team mate" in his effort to win the WDC. Ruben's has and will continue to support Michael Why! because Ruben's does not pay the bills ar Ferrari..

[Ray Bell]

The relevance of team orders to help a driver win the title is that the WDC brings natural accolades to the team anyway. Rubens or Michael in front at Austria made no difference to the Constructor's title, but if it helps TGF win the Driver's title then it's a double for the team and more saleable on the sponsorship market.

Mika should be helping DC when he can, of course, to repay him, as mentioned by the waffler...

[laxman]

ok,
first of all,im really not sure that a blocking tactic will help DC to win the chp.Its very unlikely that MS will find a mclaren right in front of him after he pits.its going to be about a 30sec diff and i dont see one mclaren going that slow and the other being right behing the leader.Anyways,you have to admit that even this year,MH seems to be the faster driver in the mclaren camp.So it will be even harder to follow team orders.The only way woud probably be to let the other guy win like MS did to irvine in malaysia.But think about that again.What will teh mclaren team do if MH is leading and DC is in second.I think its too soon to ask mika to move over(again..for all ferrari haters...he will probably move over if he is in second and dc third)

ony time will tell.....

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by mac
Besides, I would find it hard to believe Mika could help DC as TGF (not to mention Barrichello and the Williams) is always in front of Mika on the grid.

Actually, in each of his DNF's, Mika has been either right behind TGF or in one case well ahead.
I am not talking about the DNS (did not starts) As I pointed out, teh second McLaren only has to be ahead of the ferrari when the Ferrari comes out of the pits for team orders to work, something that I find detracts from the WDC.

[Don K]

Let's start with an easy one:

(1) Suppose David leads the race, followed by Michael and Mika
(1. David, 2. Michael, 3. Häkkinen).
Than Mika should try to overtake Michael, effectively giving David 2 points (in his battle with Michael).

A little bit less easy:

(2) Suppose David leads, followed by Mika and Michael.
(1. David, 2. Häkkinen, 3. Michael).
In that case Mika would have to prevent Michael from overtaking him, because that would (effectively) take away to points from David (in his battle with Michael).
And he should not try to overtake David, because that would take away 4 points.

A tricky one:

(3) Suppose Michael leads, followed by Mika and David.
(3a) If Mika would allow David to pass him, he would (efectively) give him 2 points.
(3b) But if he would pass Michael himself, that would give David four points.

Following (3a), David would have to try to overtake Michael (giving him another 8 points). If he succeeds in doing so, Mika could win another 2 points for David by overtaking Michael.

Following (3b), David would still have to try to overtake Michael (4 points). If he succeeds, Mika might let David pass himself, giving him another 4 points.

Don K.

[Valve Bounce]

Supposing TGF leads both McLarens. Just after halfway, TGF goes into the pits, and Mika lets DC overtake him into the lead. TGF comes out of the pits in 3rd place behind MIka, and Mika slows and blocks TGF for 3 laps. DC then pits, and comes out of the pits ahead of both Mika and TGF. Mika then still drives as slowly as possible to give DC a nice buffer before Mika pits.
This is the type of team orders that I would not like to see.

[Maxmil]

I do not believe that McLaren will invoke team orders in the way that Ferrari did. The team does not seem to me to want to stoop to that level. Scenarios such as those presented by Valve Bounce, however, are another matter, and the cars do seem to have either superior fuel economy or else an oversized tank. This clearly leaves room for some "passive" blocking where Mika could seek to give DC a better cushion for a pitstop or just to pad a lead. If Mika is in the lead, and TGF is not a factor, then DC is on his own. I'm betting that this will be the case in Montreal. I mean TGF has got to DNF sometime!

[Mekola]

With no helping Coulthard to take the title and get title chances, Dennis made a stupid decision like Frank Williams made in 1981 when Carlos Reutemann was his main title contender but he lend the opportunities also to Alan Jones because he also has a good relationship with him. As a result, he only won the Constructor championship but Piquet was the Champion.
Another trouble is the depart of Newey to Jaguar, or all the dance about it. The unstability on the technical area will affect the team performance.
Both problems helps Ferrari to be more pleasant to catch both drivers and constructors Champs, also helps other teams like Williams, Bar or Jordan to grew up on the statistics and make more tries to win races or be on the podium.

[Red]

Doesn’t matter if Coulthard ever helped Mika or not. Of course he will help. Why? Because neither of them pay the bills for McLaren . They actually get a salary. Even though is Driver’s Championship, it is still Constructor’s.

Don K, 3b was exactly what Rubens was supposed to in Austria. Or 3a as soon as possible, maybe Schumacher could eventually pass Coulthard when everybody knew that Rubens won’t. The ostentatious in last corner 3a helped only his own ego.

VB, let me see if I got the strategy.
Lap 1. Schumacher gets the lead followed by Mika and David.
Lap 15 (out of 70 let’s say). Becomes obvious that Mika won’t pass Schumacher. Mika moves over for David. (Here I make a small correction to your plan). I assume that Macs can follow within 2-5 seconds behind, otherwise Schumacher already won. The first stop is scheduled on approx. lap 35. Mika begins to slow down with 2 secs per lap, he has to lose about 35 seconds.
Lap 35-37. Schumacher pits. Rejoins in third, precisely 1 second behind Mika (not pitted yet). Taking full advantage of a light car, as opposed to Schumacher’s full of gas, Mika successfully blocks Schumacher. He has 2-4 laps to slow him with several seconds, something about 2 per lap (please note that I made another assumptions, Schumacher is the first to pit, Ron knows that and Ross is sleeping). Is that the mischievous plan?

Now, considering that in the race are usually 22 car and, by that time, only several of them are in the same lap as Macs or Reds, considering that Rubens is also featuring, (Saubers and Prosts as well ) and another million of variables IF Ron/Newey/Haug can elaborate such a perfect timing then they’ll get my full admiration! (And curses of course if it is successful in the end). Isn’t the teamwork great?

VB, you may add Williams into equation Or Jacques. Or Ralf. Or Frenzy. Or Eddie. Or even Minardi. All of them could be either friends or enemies for a camp or the other. Indeed, exaggerating to the most you may see F1 not an 11/12 teams competition, but only 2 like in soccer. It is possible in theory but what’s the point?

[Liz]

(1) Mika will have to at least start a few races and remain on the track for more than 10 laps in order to be of any active use to DC.

(2) The next best help he can be is to keep doing what he is doing - DNS and fall off the track early. This allows the team to concentrate on DC, stops anyone from enforcing "Move Over" Clauses, and allows Uncle Ron to continue to play favourites without actually compromising his WDC hopes by actively supporting the redheaded stepchild in the other garage. It also allows lots of gratuitous TV shots of Erja looking shocked when hubby comes home from work early yet again.

(3) Perhaps Mika could help DC spiff up his wardrobe, get a decent haircut, find a good woman, have a baby and get out of Formula One. Then McLaren could hire Helio Castro Neves and Enrique Bernoldi.

[Valve Bounce]

Liz, could you please check the program for this thread? When I click on this thread, I cannot get past laxman's post, and have to click on reply before I can read the others.

Red. The scenario I gave is precisely what you assumed. Howeverm Ferrari are also concerned about this problem and are introducing a more fuel efficient engine for Canada. It is all in the site F1-live. It was of some concern that the Mclaren was able to pit 11 laps latre than teh Ferrari at Monaco.
I fully agree that there are other cars inteh equation, and Williams in particular might be able to foul this up a bit.
I just gave this example of team orders as the one that I find most distasteful.

Liz, back again. I know the subject of team orders annoys the heck out of you, as it does me. Let's agree on this one point. However, I would prefer McLaren to give Mark Webber a drive rather than Bernoldi.

[Red]

Yep, I’m a little concerned about that fuel efficiency myself. Not too much however. David’s very delayed stop could be a leaner fuel mixture usage as Laxman explained in another thread. But it’s good to hear about the new Ferrari engine anyway. Still, if McLaren will get that kind of strategy I can only praise them. On the other hand I believe that Ron would prefer Don K’s “Following 3a” strategy instead.

PS: Coming from work early yet again! Brilliant

[Liz]

I was joking about Bernoldi. I just thought it would make DC so very happy to see Bernoldi in his former car.

[RussianFriend]

Taking into account the drive Mika is showing this year, he is poor help. His chances to win anything are quite theoretical. If Ron Dennis needs the figure "1" to be painted on his car next year, he should introduce the team order. If ron do not care about the results and races just for fun, he may go on his Mikas games.

Regarding Don K math we have too much variantes to be discussed: 22 * 21 * 20 ...* 3 * 2 = (if somebody gets calculator near, one can find out the number of variantes). Will Ron Dennis describe all of them as a team order?

[Don K]

Originally posted by RussianFriend
Regarding Don K math we have too much variantes to be discussed

That's exactly why I simplified the situation by leaving out everything that isn't relevant. By my standards, that is the key point of mathematics.

We are only interested in Mika, David, and David's rivals in the championship (IMHO: only Michael).
So there is a total of six possible situations in which all 3 of them are in the race (actualy there are four more situations, involving only Mika and either Michael or David, but in those cases there is not much to discus).

I allready described all 6 of them:
1: David - Michael - Mika
2: David - Mika - Michael
3: Michael - Mika - David
3a: Michael - David - Mika
and David - Michael - Mika (again)
3b: Mika - Michael - David
and Mika - David - Michael

Do you really want me to explain the other four situations?


Don K.