Why is it possible to be talentless and still win?

Cyprian · 17 Oct 2000, 22:20 (Ref:43364)

So my many friends, it's interesting to note how everyone
has their own strong views when it comes to their favourite
race driver, forgiving him his every fault while viciously
attacking all others mentioned.
Personally, I've thrown a bit of bait out there, as you may
now have realised, and I wasn't disappointed. Of course
everyone realises some basic
levels of human consciousness are required. seeing that f1 prizes itself as an elitist sport, how good are these rich boys? Is it the best possible pool of the available talent?
Alot of other sports provide a ladder out of the ghetto, soccer, basketball and boxing, and while I've seen some pretty ripper joyriders in my time, none of these were ever given a chance to shine because of their restricted social background.
What do you mad bunch think?

EERO · 17 Oct 2000, 23:45 (Ref:43370)

Well, Cyprian, its a good question even if its delivery is a bit churlish, but I have to say that I agree with you. We will never know the "Real" talents are because for a myriad of reasons they haven't surfaced.
I can think of several possibilities:

1) Racing IS expensive, getting started is beyond the means of many who may wish to race-though many here will say, "Where there's a will...."

2) Racing is not broadly covered in the popular press, Many who might have a talent will never follow it because they have never fallen in love with the sport due to lack of exposure.

3) Many from a Socio-economically disadvantaged background will be a combination of points 1 & 2.

4) Those who love it and pursue it will rise to the top, perhaps over the shoulders of more talented less financially well endowed competitors, but taleted nevertheless.

I will leave it to our scholars to cite examples that run counter to the obvious example of Senor Dinz.

Ronj Schryer · 18 Oct 2000, 00:43 (Ref:43372)

to blow all of your arguments into the water i must cite one---Gilles Villeneuve. When I first met him he was a bundle of raw energy/talent/enthusiasm but with very limited means. He did well

LYM · 18 Oct 2000, 01:20 (Ref:43373)

F1, strictly speaking is not a Olympian sportlike soccer and basketball. It depends on technology more than human talents. The manufacturers see it as a marketing gadget, and a testing ground for new inventions that will be apply to the passenger cars eventually.

Even in F1 there is more than raw talent to determine the drivers' paypackets. Ralf Schumacher was the second highest driver last year, while MH in a distant third. It all depends on the individual marketability. Sports and businesses can never be separated.

Jay · 18 Oct 2000, 04:04 (Ref:43384)

Gilles Villeneuve was a very rare example of someone coming from humble backgrounds to race in F1. He was lucky enough to gain a spot in a Formula Atlantics race in Montreal with several F1 drivers. He beat them and the F1 community noticed. Most don't get this kind of opportunity.

Valve Bounce · 18 Oct 2000, 05:01 (Ref:43389)

Sorry guys, but the title of this thread has nothing to do with money. I cannot think of any sport where anyone without talent can win an event at a high level of the sport. The only exception may be sailing, where, the winner can sometimes be decided by the vagaries of a windshift, total lack of wind on part of the fleet, or a complete change in wind direction. But even then, the talentless may win one race through sheer luck, but is unlikely to win a regatta. To be quite fair, I cannot single out any driver in F1 who has no talent. Such a driver would more than likely kill himself the first time he tried to drive an F1 car. Some guys like to pick on Pedro Diniz because he has a lot of money backing him - OK he may be lucky to get into F1, but he has shown this year that he does have talent.
If you want to talk about the best possible pool of available talent, start another thread with that title!!

neutral · 18 Oct 2000, 07:20 (Ref:43397)

Michael Schumacher had to give up karting at 11 because his parents could no longer support him. Luckily, the parent of another driver noticed his talented and assisted him financially. It is strange to think that a talent such as Michaels could have been missed had this man not interfered. Im sure over the years there has been cases like this where some have not been so lucky. Imagine F1 in the 90's had Michael not been so fortunate.

angst · 18 Oct 2000, 07:33 (Ref:43398)

Hmmm...F1 without TGF. No, don't get me started on that.

Valve Bounce · 18 Oct 2000, 10:04 (Ref:43408)

This thread is supposed to be about those without talent who can win; I doubt anyone here, no matter how biased in their opinion, could possibly suggest that the drivers named so far, like Gilles, TGF, or Pedro, are without talent. Like I said, start another thread if you are wanting to talk about those who succeded through lack of money - that's not what the heading on this thread says.

angst · 18 Oct 2000, 10:36 (Ref:43413)

Good point Valve Bounce. Which drivers with no talent have actually won races then? I can think of no Grand Prix winner who had no talent.

Don K · 18 Oct 2000, 10:53 (Ref:43415)

If you are rich enough, there might be a possibility.

First you buy your way into a Formula 3 team.
Then you bribe your opponents, in order to get the results you need for a super license
Then you buy your way into a Formula 1 team.
And finaly, you bribe your opponents to give you 1 win.

So in case anyone of you guys happens to be related to Bill Gates...

Scarlet O'Hara · 18 Oct 2000, 11:03 (Ref:43418)

This isn't rugby or cricket, you know. If you don't have SOME talent, the team can't "carry" you. Instead you'll end up wrapped around a wall, or at best in the gravel trap.

LYM · 18 Oct 2000, 11:53 (Ref:43426)

But it's not always the most talented guy wins isn't it....

tazzoid · 18 Oct 2000, 12:03 (Ref:43428)

WHAT?!?!?!? ARE YOU SAYING THAT CRICKET IS ALWAYS FIXED?!?!?!? WELL IT'S NOT! JUST BECAUSE HANSIE MADE A TEENY WEENY LITTLE MISTAKE, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP BRINGING IT UP!! IT'S BECAUSE I'M FROM SOUTH AFRICA, ISN'T IT? ISN'T IT??????

Don't worry, I know that's not what you meant. Just a bit of a touchy subject...

LYM · 18 Oct 2000, 12:17 (Ref:43432)

Quote:

Originally posted by tazzoid
WHAT?!?!?!? ARE YOU SAYING THAT CRICKET IS ALWAYS FIXED?!?!?!? WELL IT'S NOT! JUST BECAUSE HANSIE MADE A TEENY WEENY LITTLE MISTAKE, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP BRINGING IT UP!! IT'S BECAUSE I'M FROM SOUTH AFRICA, ISN'T IT? ISN'T IT??????

Don't worry, I know that's not what you meant. Just a bit of a touchy subject...

Don't you scare her! Welcome to the forum Sarah. The posters here are a bit paranoid... but they are all friendly pple. You can't find a better F1 forum out there.

TimD · 18 Oct 2000, 12:22 (Ref:43434)

"You're lost in the woods with a group of international cricketers. It gets dark, you attempt to strike a light to start a fire - but horror of horrors, you break your last match! What do you do?

Call Hansie - he can fix a match."

Sorry, told to me by an Aussie last week. I've seen Mr Cronje play, and whatever he got caught doing, he'll always be a sensational cricketer to me.

Back on topic - there is no such thing as a talentless F1 driver. The technical difficulty of the cars has weeded out the lucky and the over-wealthy no-hopers by the time they get to that level. Drivers such as Diniz, Inoue, de Cesaris or Lavaggi, however much they are overshadowed by the giants of the sport, are still MILES BETTER THAN YOU OR ME.

By way of illustration, the gravel traps of Silverstone have on many occasions sucked in rich amateur collectors or racing journalists, who fondly assumed that they could conduct a GP car. I vividly recall one British journalist who proudly completed a flying lap, only to spread the Tyrrell he was driving all along the pitlane wall, bringing it to rest at the feet of the Tyrrell technicians who had trusted him with their car.

Don K · 18 Oct 2000, 12:41 (Ref:43436)

I suppose that everyone who has managed to get a
super license, must be good enough to complete a couple of laps.

And if you are rich enough to bribe everyone involved,
you don't need to have fast laps.

Of course you must fysically be up to the task,
but you don't need talent for that.

tazzoid · 18 Oct 2000, 14:05 (Ref:43444)

Ok, I know this is a motorsport forum, but that was ENTIRELY UNCALLED FOR and it made me bite myself. And it's sore.

And sorry Sarah. For scaring you. When you say paranoid are you specifically referring to me?

And just for the record: I HATE AUSSIES! As a nation - I'm sure they're very nice individuals.

Sorry. I'll let you get back to F1 now.

Cyprian · 18 Oct 2000, 22:24 (Ref:43503)

For those of you who hadn't realised, this topic was in fact
ultimately about F1's reliance on shampooed rich boys and
complete disregard for the potential out there, why even
Kenya must have at least as good a driver as we tend to see.
Yes, half the thrill of F1 is the glamour and elitism, but
over half, at least, I'd say, of the current grid could
unquestionably be happily switched for teenage malnourished
asian taxi drivers.
Little enough real talent exists in F1 and the tragically
lighteight quality of broad competition is a shame.

Liz · 19 Oct 2000, 00:14 (Ref:43528)

While I admit the current crop of F1 pilots is not the lineup they had in 1979, I cordially respond to your diatribe with the following:

If you want to start that "rich people suck" mantra, please take it to the Gravel Trap where Brett will be happy to discuss this subject until you both get tired of it.

And should anyone doubt the fact that the occasional no-talent yutz gets on the grid, may I remind you of Ricardo Rosset?

P.S. Mario Andretti did not come from a rich family either. Judging by the difference between him and his spoilt brat son, perhaps a good dose of poverty is not a bad thing to a determined man. And didn't Prost finance his early career with scholarships?

TimD · 19 Oct 2000, 00:21 (Ref:43532)

Following on from Liz' examples, there's always Nigel Mansell, who was an electrician/wireman, and who put his house and the family car in hock for a chance to race - only for Andrea de Cesaris to smash his race car.

Derek Warwick started his race career in dirt-track jalopies. Elitist?

Valve Bounce · 19 Oct 2000, 04:06 (Ref:43553)

Hey Liz!! The Caulfield Cup is on this weekend, and there is a horse called diatribe running. Well, I have had this name going through my head for the pst few days, and now I have just read your post. I take this to be devine intuition, and I am going to put a bet on it to win!!

Liz · 20 Oct 2000, 01:34 (Ref:43647)

Do i get some of your winnings if the horse comes in?

Although Lauda came from a well-off family, I believe he borrowed big time to finance his last shot at a drive - and it paid off - and I know James Hunt used to sleep in a tent or in the open at the tracks because he couldnt' afford to finance both a place to live and a racing career.

Tony Kanaan the CART pilot was so poor that when he raced in Italy the racing team locked him in the garage for the night and he stayed there until the next morning. Memo Gidley still lives in his truck most of the time.

I think the moral of this story, if there is one, is that nothing is impossible to a man of talent with the determination to sacrifice everything to get where he wants to go.

Doubtless there are Einsteins and Salks and Neweys that will never be known, some of them barefoot and pregnant in Utah ... but that is life.

Jay · 20 Oct 2000, 03:28 (Ref:43659)

Patrick Carpentier (in Cart) was not that well off either and had to work his way through the ranks to get close to the top. however, now that he is here the talent seems to have gone elsewhere.

angst · 20 Oct 2000, 10:32 (Ref:43674)

Add Rene Arnoux and Bruno Giacomelli to that list. It is possible to get yourself a drive if, as Liz said, you are determined enough.
I have to pose the question again though. Which driver without talent has won a Grand Prix? I can't think of any. My point being that i't not possible to be talentless and still win races.