Toyota Allegations Past and Present

Korr · 29 Nov 2003, 10:27 (Ref:798098)

I came across a good article about Toyota's alleged cheating in F1 at Pitpass:
http://www.pitpass.com/features/feat...sid=675&page=1

I was wondering what was happening with the investigation stemming from the October raids. This article poses a bunch of "inside" information, the veracity of such obviously cannot be confirmed.

If true, however, this could mean bad things for Toyota's F1 program, and justifiably so.

If the allegations are true, I wonder where they spent the billion or so of Toyota's money? Surely it cannot cost all that much to copy components from a drawing

. Maybe Ove has a nice new yacht or something!

If true, I fully support the notion of casting Toyota permenantly out of F1.

Thoughts?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I have edited the title of this thread to reflect that they are allegations.

Hazza · 29 Nov 2003, 13:02 (Ref:798210)

Toyota's Rally Program?

enemy-ace · 29 Nov 2003, 13:27 (Ref:798218)

Here's a link to Toyota's Rally ban.
http://freespace.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

As for the article, it really is all speculation and hearsay at this point. I personally can't put a lot of stock in it.
If the "supposed cheating" is as widely known throughout the Toyota team as the writer thinks then I'm sure the truth will come out. It really is easier to keep a secret to yourself than it is to keep it to a 'number' of people.

Redblurr · 29 Nov 2003, 13:44 (Ref:798229)

An anagram of "Toyota cheating" is TOYOTA GAIN TECH - interesting

RWC · 30 Nov 2003, 01:35 (Ref:798573)

I read something about the rally ban just recently ,leading to me suspecting toyota may have been hard done by.The link posted by enemy is great-it shows that they really were deliberately cheating there.
The toyota that looks like a ferrari though is much more subtle.
Toyota could even claim that they had no intention at all of copying anything from another team.They just headhunted an employee who happened to only know one way to make a car.....lol
Seriously,there may or may not be anything to the technology theft claim.I just hope that toyota NEVER do anything obviously wrong such as the turbo thing.It would be a HUGE disgrace to them and an insult to the fans

neilap · 30 Nov 2003, 05:33 (Ref:798754)

Well I have been at this for awhile now. I mentioned some of the things that they have done before too. This is what they have done in the past. History is all we have to go by. Maybe now they will change but as far a I feel... well, we know.

RWC · 30 Nov 2003, 13:48 (Ref:799240)

This has changed my view of toyota alot.

I really did think that they were a victim of useless fia 'example setting' over the turbo thing.I never did actually have the straight facts,only various comments along the lines of 'They found a way of getting more through the restrictor' and so thought they had found a legitimate tweak.
I'll be very suspicious about them now.
It really makes one think that,by keeping the team boss on after the rally ban,that toyota head honchos must have know about it and encouraged it all.....

Gt_R · 2 Dec 2003, 07:17 (Ref:801170)

In both cases, Toyota seem very quick to distance the top management from the offender... doesn't speak much about being a supportive company towards staff does it?

Those cowards.

climb · 2 Dec 2003, 14:50 (Ref:801531)

Quote:

Originally posted by Redblurr
An anagram of "Toyota cheating" is TOYOTA GAIN TECH - interesting

AS WELL AS: TOYOTA TEACHING
OR TOYOTAGATE INC.H.
OR TOYOTA ACE THING
OR E.G. TOYOTA IN CHAT
OR TOYOTA GET CHINA
OR HI TOYOTA C. AGENT

BootsOntheSide · 2 Dec 2003, 16:53 (Ref:801635)

Toyota have a shameful record in practically every other champinship they've ever entered, and the corporate desire to win F1 is greater than anythign else, as is the investment and skill required, and they've struggeld to persuade top people to join (although gascoyne may be able to tempt a leading driver for 2005?), so it'd be naive at best and stupid at worst to explect themt o play above board.

kristof14 · 2 Dec 2003, 17:23 (Ref:801665)

i thought toyota had been banned totally from rallying but that article only says 1996 and i remember them competing after that.

gttouring · 2 Dec 2003, 17:46 (Ref:801688)

wow that toyota turbo scandal was crazy, i didn't know they invested so much into cheating, that is terrible, and they almost got away with it...There is probably a way to cool the inlet air to increase HP, it is banned by the FIA to cool the inlet air, but i am sure big T can find a way. The Lexus division is tinkering with Peltier elements to cool the inside of the cabin of passenger cars, a ribbon of this stuff with a simple battery (i am sure the onboard electronics can furish some power) could power the P.Element wrapped or integrated into the carbon fiber airbox, and get a chilly air charge like a constant NO2 blast, if they could hide a turbo inlet they could hide this stuff and bump up the power easy...
Cheaters they say never win- but they don't give up cheating either

John Abrahamsen · 2 Dec 2003, 21:03 (Ref:801866)

Quote:

Originally posted by RWC
This has changed my view of toyota alot.

I really did think that they were a victim of useless fia 'example setting' over the turbo thing.I never did actually have the straight facts,only various comments along the lines of 'They found a way of getting more through the restrictor' and so thought they had found a legitimate tweak.
I'll be very suspicious about them now.
It really makes one think that,by keeping the team boss on after the rally ban,that toyota head honchos must have know about it and encouraged it all.....

Uh, I don`t think that they actually have gotten caught in their act here. Nothing is sure in this case.

IMHO it`s just a storm in a glass of water, in other words, false allegations made by false men.

If I tell you Ferrari are cheating do you believe me maybe?

That is the same level of truth that this allegations have at the moment. Let`s wait till we know for sure

.

Gt_R · 3 Dec 2003, 00:09 (Ref:801975)

Quote :"If I tell you Ferrari are cheating do you believe me maybe? That is the same level of truth that this allegations have at the moment. Let`s wait till we know for sure"

Many would love to believe you there!

But industrial espoinage is different from using illegal parts or jump start. It is a very real problem which can't be effectively stopped. "false allegations made by false men"? surely the people at Ferrari would know more about the details about this issue and parts on the Toyota then us, and won't deliberately court trouble by crying wolve.

It is almost a silent resignation that losing key personnel would probably result in lost of data, or that rival teams would gain knowledge of some key information. However, when's the last time we see an F1 car looking almost identical to another teams car? At least, when Rinland went to Arrows, they improvised on the double kneel idea. Mclaren adopted the idea too but made significant step. The Toyota simply looks like a Ferrari splashed with some white paint.

And it isn't news. Stories and suspicious had gone around early in the year about Ferrari having their data taken out and offered to others in dispicable means and purposes.

To take pictures are acceptable. But for a major team to accept an employee in exchange for "official data" is of lousy taste.

Teams who turned down such temptations ought to be applauded.

neilap · 3 Dec 2003, 05:53 (Ref:802180)

Quote:

[i]Teams who turned down such temptations ought to be applauded. [/B]

Oh I know of one such team. Strangely enought its Toyotas main rival in Japan! Ever since I have been on this board I have been saying the same things about Toyota. Its not that they are not an amazing company. They are some of the best businessmen in the world. They know how to make money. They know how to advertise. They know how to target certain areas and usually take over sales numbers. The issue I have always had with them is that there is no competitive spirit there. The do nothing ground breaking. They take no chances. Instead they steal ideas from others and attempt to put their own personal spin on them.

As for motorsports, they are only there to sell cars. Yes, in the end that is what matters. However, some companies pride themselves in racing. Toyota is just tired of being known for the bland Camry. They want young people to become interested in their cars. They care nothing about racing. Hell, they are about to enter nascar. Rolling billboards!!

John Abrahamsen · 3 Dec 2003, 15:23 (Ref:802715)

No matter what you say Gt_r it will not change the fact that Toyota are innocent to this date. I don`t see why you think to much about it. If you were arrested for murder, would you like that people called you a murder even if you didn`t kill someone?

Far worse; when you are let out people think you were called innocent because of lack of evidence. And also remember that those allegations are pointed at this person, and not the team.

I`m just trying to make a point in this pointless discussion.

Toyota were caught cheating in rally, and they learnt from that (remember that FIA rules say nothing about espionage = cheating...). They would never do anything like that again. If not someone like this suspected person wanted to impress their boss a little by bringing over data from Ferrari to Toyota. If this can be proven I don`t really think that Toyota will be touched by this, as long as key-personell didn`t knew about this story.

Lets wait till we hear the judge say: "Not guilty" or the police investigation are closed

Super Tourer · 3 Dec 2003, 15:32 (Ref:802721)

I this is a good point to close this one, it's a tricky subject anyway.

ST

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