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21 Sep 2015, 07:53 (Ref:3575624) | #1 | ||
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VW Group facing billion $ fines and criminal charges in US
'Volkswagen AG’s admission that it cheated to make nearly half a million diesel cars appear cleaner-burning than they are leaves the automaker facing billions in fines, its executives risking criminal charges and its U.S. expansion plans in peril.'
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...iminal-charges |
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21 Sep 2015, 10:53 (Ref:3575662) | #2 | ||
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I just saw this on my local morning news. Not a good look.
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"Knowing that it's in you and you never let it out Is worse than blowing any engine or any wreck you'll ever have." -Mike Cooley |
21 Sep 2015, 11:31 (Ref:3575679) | #3 | ||
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What the options for VW?
Buy back? Recall? Trade in on - Electric or Hybrid etc? My guess is the addition of an ad-blue system like the larger diesels might be necessary. https://youtu.be/V0SIevCXnUA |
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21 Sep 2015, 12:38 (Ref:3575702) | #4 | ||
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The first 'option' is a $37,500 fine for every vehicle sold that broke the rules. They have already stopped sales of 4 cylinder diesels pending the outcome of this action and their share price is down 20% today. Ugly scenes.
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21 Sep 2015, 16:56 (Ref:3575803) | #5 | ||
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the class action lawsuits have started.
not looking good at all! Last edited by chillibowl; 21 Sep 2015 at 17:18. Reason: posted a link to the class action lawsuit website - inappropriate sorry. |
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22 Sep 2015, 06:51 (Ref:3575938) | #6 | ||
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The investigation has spread to Asia. South Korea are looking into it and saying if the results are bad they will check other German makes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34322016 |
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23 Sep 2015, 07:55 (Ref:3576268) | #7 | ||
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But people in the know have known these silly loopholes for years so why does it take America to shout first ? things like pumping air into the exhaust to dilute the gasses and DPFs that just simply collect "soot" and chuck it out "up the road" have been going on for a long time !
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
23 Sep 2015, 10:12 (Ref:3576303) | #8 | |
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putting the conspiracy hat on... something to do with discrediting diesel in the mind of the public given its not the most environmentally friendly of fuels and we all still seem to lap it up, to increase demand in petrol to bring the prices back up?
to divide up the vw/seat/audi empire? any other wild, totally implausible theories? |
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23 Sep 2015, 10:33 (Ref:3576309) | #9 | ||
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I believe the EU/US Trade treaty negotiations are proving challenging. Perhaps a good time to lob in an Exocet. Having stopped QE the Americans might welcome a nice external input of compo cash now the BP rape and non-US banking fines seem to be slowing down. Plenty of car manufacturers to go for to keep that game rolling. There are lots of ways this sort of game could be played out. |
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23 Sep 2015, 12:54 (Ref:3576349) | #10 | ||
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And of course the Yank Tanks up to not so many years ago didn't pollute the atmosphere at all ! Obviously the tree huggers are going to love this
A couple of years back I took a Golf for an MOT and we couldn't sort out the high emissions, after a lot of aggro it was sorted by putting a new speed sensor in it ! Last edited by GORDON STREETER; 23 Sep 2015 at 13:06. |
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
23 Sep 2015, 16:19 (Ref:3576392) | #11 | ||
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Yup, all our fault, like everything else in the world today.
The worst thing about our regulations is that the eliminate the good stuff from overseas. Volkswagen AG Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn has resigned. |
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"Knowing that it's in you and you never let it out Is worse than blowing any engine or any wreck you'll ever have." -Mike Cooley |
23 Sep 2015, 16:39 (Ref:3576400) | #12 | ||
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
23 Sep 2015, 16:45 (Ref:3576401) | #13 | ||
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Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
24 Sep 2015, 07:02 (Ref:3576566) | #14 | |
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Have to wonder how the damage done by VW compares to Mobil's efforts with the Exxon Valdez and its result:
"Exxon appealed again. On May 23, 2007, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals denied ExxonMobil's request for a third hearing and let stand its ruling that Exxon owes $2.5 billion in punitive damages. Exxon then appealed to the Supreme Court, which agreed to hear the case........ In a decision issued June 25, 2008, Justice David Souter issued the judgment of the court, vacating the $2.5 billion award and remanding the case back to a lower court, finding that the damages were excessive with respect to maritime common law[/COLOR][/URL]. Exxon's actions were deemed "worse than negligent but less than maliciousThe punitive damages were further reduced to an amount of $507.5 million [/B]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill OR Montara oil rig DISASTER! "In 2012, PTTEP Australasia pleaded guilty to charges under the Offshore Petroleum and Greenhouse Gas Storage Act and was fined $510,000" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montara_oil_spill Last edited by wnut; 24 Sep 2015 at 07:08. |
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24 Sep 2015, 07:58 (Ref:3576577) | #15 | ||
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The above cases were "accidents". Sure there was negligence and all of that, but the companies can argue that the end result was not intended. VW fully intended to cheat the system. It is not a blurred line at all, it is a well defined test that they intentionally built a cheat device to get around. Further, the penalties are apparently very clearly spelt out in the legislation (from what I have read). Again, no blurred lines, if you break the rules you are liable for a fine up to (I can't remember the exact figure but around) US$38,600 / vehicle. In some ways it pales in comparison to the value lost by VW in recent days. Stock down 35%, some 28 billion Euro. It appears to be recovering since the resignation of Winterkorn, but still a very serious situation. The stocks have declined more than the total value of both Renault and Peugeot It has been suggested before, but a HUGE marketing programme is going to be required to push VW (Audi and Skoda) back into positive ground. I don't think entering F1 would be as stupid an idea as it sounds (on the face of it). |
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24 Sep 2015, 10:11 (Ref:3576597) | #16 | ||
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The market for diesel cars in Europe is and has always been much larger (Especially France and Germany historically) for a number of reasons. The effects of any potential real problems related to the failure of the regulators to regulate when their own tests are undertaken would be tiny (but expensive) in the US but with the rest of the world piling in opportunistically could destroy the EU vehicle manufacturing base, especially that of Germany. Except, perhaps, for the likes of formerly US government subsidised GM and Ford. Chrysler might be abandoned and hung out to dry now it is effectively owned by Fiat which, iirc, was close to bankruptcy a few years ago. Since nearly all of the "experts" (especially those with an ecological or health drum to bang) are now being quoted as saying they could not understand how the reported figures and "pollution" levels did not seem to match (no alleged science cited though) for the past few years it seems clear that even the man in the street was probably well aware that the tests were likely to be meaningless in the real world. It will be interesting to see of a minor regulatory problem in the US leads to a melt down in the European economy - especially in the Eurozone. Is confidence in things European is shaken strongly enough it just might especially with some of the other factors (refugees/migrants, Greece, Russia, etc.) all bubbling under. As a perceptive UK politician once said when talking about unrecognised risks in politics. "Events, dear boy, events." Meanwhile Winterkorn, who would no doubt have retired already had he not been in such a powerful and financially rewarding job, has resigned and taken, reportedly, a large pension pot with him along with a very comfortable salary from last year and, presumably, this year. I think I would do the same if I was in his position. I certainly would not want to deal with the all of the crap hitting the fan. |
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24 Sep 2015, 10:51 (Ref:3576609) | #17 | |
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This may require some digging to verify the story but, if it is as reported, either the VW management have been very stupid (historically), very inept since the report was published or the entire storm is being whipped up for some other purpose.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Goliath.html Presumably we will find out something closer to the reality in due course. |
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24 Sep 2015, 10:54 (Ref:3576610) | #18 | ||
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Does the average car buyer really care?
The faked results don't in any way impact the way the car drives - the consumer will not notice the difference between a car with the dodgy software and one without (I don't understand the recall of the cars for updates - it's going to make no difference to the owners). Will anybody have bought one of the effected cars based on the emissions test results? Seems highly unlikely to me. If you're that bothered about emissions you buy a Prius (and ignore the environmental mess involved in the construction of those - but that's another story). As far as I can see a large company has been caught cheating a government test - there's nothing to really worry the consumer. It's a test dodge rather than a fundamental safety flaw - I can't see how that's going to dent consumer confidence. If it does and the price of VW's falls through the floor I'll be straight out to bag myself a bargain. |
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24 Sep 2015, 11:42 (Ref:3576621) | #19 | ||
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So I agree that there may be bargains to be had and even better of the "consumer confidence" problem covers the petrol engined variants as well. It probably will given the way these things work. Unless, of course the VW management come up with a really clever way to gain the public's sympathy. There's no obvious track record for such an approach as far as I know. |
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24 Sep 2015, 14:41 (Ref:3576654) | #20 | ||
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thats the multi billion dollar question right there.
hard to find direct comparisons but i feel something akin to the various scandals about the labeling of 'green' or 'organic' foods. there are numerous stories and exposes about the labels very often being mis representations but overwhelmingly people in general are still willing to pay a premium price for something that says 'organic' nor are they willing to do the research themselves. granted a car is a far more expensive item but people also love bargains. i own a 2014 Jetta 1.8L so im not directly affected by this, but i do wonder what effect it will have on the future resale of my car in general. i keep my car in good shape, its got the premium option package, and i service it regularly at an authorized VW dealership so i would think that the best trade-in im going to get (im not a fan of privately selling cars - dont like strangers coming to my house kind of thing) is going to be from VW provided i am buying a new car from them at the same time. scandal or no, im happy with my car and if im getting a deal on my next one im inclined to stay within the VW family. they have apparently hired the same law firm that represent BP in the aftermath of Deepwater Horizon so i would expect a very huge PR campaign to be a part of their defense. im inclined to agree with mikuni that doubling down on motor sports is a good way to do this although a series which allows them to promote 'clean diesel' seems more the route they should take rather then F1 where frankly there is a good chance they will be made to look even sillier. |
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24 Sep 2015, 16:40 (Ref:3576687) | #21 | ||
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How could this impact company car owners?
I currently have a Golf Bluemotion 1.6 TDI. |
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24 Sep 2015, 16:57 (Ref:3576690) | #22 | ||
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While it ultimately is the evasion of the regulations that tripped them up, there WILL be fallout with consumers. VW already struggles here in the US. This will not go away quietly. Richard |
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To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
24 Sep 2015, 19:34 (Ref:3576744) | #23 | |||
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Now we know that they were gaming the system and those 11 million vehicles will either require a permanent software fix which will reduce engine power or the addition of a DEF system to maintain current output levels. These cars probably lost about 20-30% of their resale value over night - so yes customers are going to care. |
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24 Sep 2015, 20:48 (Ref:3576768) | #24 | ||
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Have VW really sold 11million small capacity 4 cylinder diesel powered cars in the US? |
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24 Sep 2015, 22:13 (Ref:3576797) | #25 | ||
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No the 11 million is worldwide sales, all of which were fitted with this software defeat device. The US had about 500,000 of these vehicles and another 100,000 were sold in Canada which has nearly identical emission regulations
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It's time to switch to Whiskey, we've been drinking Beer all night - Corb Lund |
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