Post Chief Report Form

[gachjoel]

Hi guys,
During a training session today i had a eeerrrrmmmmm intresting type though as regards to the Post Chief report Form
The form stated if a "Major Incident" form was filled out.
But why does it not ask if a "Serious Incident" form was filled out.
just wondering on peoples sensible answers/thoughts

[Dave Brand]

I've got three versions of the relevant form in the folder I keep my paperwork in. One, MSA-branded, is headed "Major Incident Information", the MSVR version is headed "Serious Incident Information" while the BARC version is a "Serious Incident Form". . . Post Chief's Report Forms ask for a "Major Incident Form".

Just use the form supplied by the organising club, or failing that the MSA version - they all require the same information.

[Steve Fox]

Definitions, A major incident is when the external services are involved, for example a car jumps the fence and lands in the car park, ambulances/police/fire/hems are called. The post chief will still need to do an incident report, Car 7 hit car 4 car 4 jumps fence but he will also need to do a major incident form.
I hope that was the answer you were after, if not someone else will be along in a while.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

Definitions, A major incident is when the external services are involved, for example a car jumps the fence and lands in the car park, ambulances/police/fire/hems are called. The post chief will still need to do an incident report, Car 7 hit car 4 car 4 jumps fence but he will also need to do a major incident form.
I hope that was the answer you were after, if not someone else will be along in a while.

Sorry, but that is NOT the definition of a major incident in this (or probably any) context. The Major Incident (or whatever) form is used to record information relevant to an injured driver, such as times of arrival of doctor/rescue unit, condition of belts & helmet, etc - it does not record any information about the incident itself, that's the function of the Post Chief's Report form.

. . . & a report form should never contain comments like "Car 7 hit car 4 " - that's an opinion. It should be written as "contact occurred" & the events leading to the contact described, with the aid of a diagram to clarify to enable the Clerk of the Course to make an informed decision as to culpability.

[gachjoel]

i was on the understanding that a Serious Incident was when you called rescue/doctor out to an incident and a Major Incident was when emergency services from outside were called in to help.
So the actual information recorded on both these forms are the same ?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

i was on the understanding that a Serious Incident was when you called rescue/doctor out to an incident and a Major Incident was when emergency services from outside were called in to help.
So the actual information recorded on both these forms are the same ?

My understanding is that is that there is one form (albeit with different names, as referenced in Dave's post above), to cover all eventualities of a significant nature (e.g. a doctor being called) that can't be recorded on the standard MSA Post Chief's Report Form.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

i was on the understanding that a Serious Incident was when you called rescue/doctor out to an incident and a Major Incident was when emergency services from outside were called in to help.
So the actual information recorded on both these forms are the same ?

I've never heard or seen definitions of "serious" & "major" incidents. To the best of my knowledge it's just different clubs & organisations using different nomenclature for the same form - the key word there being "same".

The normal report form covers, & is required for, every incident, however serious. The second form, call it what you will, is supplementary to the Post Chief's report & only very infrequently needed, normally if the driver is taken away from the circuit, to hospital or worse.

[gachjoel]

Cheers guys for the replies and i think that clears that one up

[Teletubby]

Certainly as far as BARC is concerned it became a 'Serious Incident Form' because 'Major Incident' now has a statutory meaning and we wished to avoid any chance of miscommunication or misunderstanding.

[Piglet]

A serious incident form is needed if a driver is sent to hospital, the med stats will show this and the MSA Steward will need the form to send to Colnbrook with their paperwork. I am also not aware of any distinction between major and serious.

Common sense says that at the time of an incident you don't know what the outcome will be so if you think that you have someone injured then it makes sense to jot down any relevant detail, timings etc in case you are asked for them later.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Sorry, but that is NOT the definition of a major incident in this (or probably any) context.

Actually, sorry to correct Dave, but it's almost the right definition in the context of the emergency services.

Generally speaking, a Major Incident is where the onsite resources are unable to cope with the incident - classic example is a car in a spectator area. Each circuit will have a Major Incident Plan prepared with co-operation from the local emergency services to identify pre-planned access routes and other resiliance points.

Obviously, what was traditionally defined as a "Major Incident" on Observer's/Post Chief's Reports (injury to a driver) may not fall within this definition or require the circuit's Major Incident Plan to be put into action. Hence why some clubs are now defining an injury to a driver etc as a Serious Incident - see what Teletubby says. It's not standard yet, and explains why it's still referred to as a "Major Incident From" on the stanrd Post Chief's Report.

In practical terms - it doesn't make any difference. The "Major Incident Form" (as described on the MSA report) is completed in the event of an driver injury on whatever form the club calls it. If there is a Major Incident, then there will be no additional form the Post Chief needs to fill out beyond those two - just make sure the original report is spot on!! There may well be paperwork for the club / circuits to complete however!!

[rbs]

At the Silverstone training day yesterday we were told that for the Grand Prix the police objected to it being called a Major Incident form, their definition of a major incident is different to ours, so ours was changed to Serious Incident.

Don't for get that in the Blue Book Post Chiefs are still called Observers in some places so it will take a while for MSA to catch up!

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Asp

Actually, sorry to correct Dave, but it's almost the right definition in the context of the emergency services.

Generally speaking, a Major Incident is where the onsite resources are unable to cope with the incident - classic example is a car in a spectator area. Each circuit will have a Major Incident Plan prepared with co-operation from the local emergency services to identify pre-planned access routes and other resiliance points.

Obviously, what was traditionally defined as a "Major Incident" on Observer's/Post Chief's Reports (injury to a driver) may not fall within this definition or require the circuit's Major Incident Plan to be put into action. Hence why some clubs are now defining an injury to a driver etc as a Serious Incident - see what Teletubby says. It's not standard yet, and explains why it's still referred to as a "Major Incident From" on the stanrd Post Chief's Report.

In practical terms - it doesn't make any difference. The "Major Incident Form" (as described on the MSA report) is completed in the event of an driver injury on whatever form the club calls it. If there is a Major Incident, then there will be no additional form the Post Chief needs to fill out beyond those two - just make sure the original report is spot on!! There may well be paperwork for the club / circuits to complete however!!

Exactly.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Asp

Actually, sorry to correct Dave, but it's almost the right definition in the context of the emergency services.

Generally speaking, a Major Incident is where the onsite resources are unable to cope with the incident - classic example is a car in a spectator area. Each circuit will have a Major Incident Plan prepared with co-operation from the local emergency services to identify pre-planned access routes and other resiliance points.

Well, I never knew that! My apologies to anyone I may have misled. However, in the context of the original post it's one & the same form.

[Power Bulge]

All local authorities have a Major Incident Plan - e.g. the petrol depot blowing up in Hertfordshire; terrorists blowing up London's transport system; an aircraft crash landing on the M1 etc etc.

There is an attempt (probably quite rightly) to distinguish between an event occurring in the county that requires implementation of this plan and an event at a race circuit that can be dealt with by the circuit resources (i.e. us). Given that we use (often) open radio channels, a PC calling in a "Major Incident" may be misunderstood by a passing county official.

Funny the things you pick up at a training day ...

[yellowspanner]

I think the concern from the external services is that we have a tight definition of a major incident. A basic interpretation is where the resources required go beyond those immediately available. So in the example given earlier a car in a spectator area may not be a major incident if there are enough ambulances available to deal with the casualties. I have made ambulances 7 (i.e. get me 7 ambulances pronto) at incidents before and not declared a major incident. Whilst this is OK at weekends (more resources) it would not work in the week (less resources at night). So a taxi involved RTI on a Saturday night may not be a major incident whilst one a Wednesday could well be. The problem is that as soon as an emergency services bod hears the phrase 'major incident' we tend to change tack and start involving a whole command structure that reaches up to God himself. The most recent major incident for my ambo service was the M5 at Taunton. I would say that 'major incident' encompasses the Le Mans 1955 incident and possibly the recent NASCAR at Daytona, though that may well have been stood down quite quickly.

[Piglet]

I think we're at real risk of making this a lot more complicated than it ought to be!

If you have a scenario where you think a driver (or marshal or spectator) might be shipped off to hospital then assume that you may have to fill in a serious incident form for the MSA's benefit.

To add more confusion every circuit will have a Major Incident Plan as well but this is not what is being discussed.

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

a Major Incident was when emergency services from outside were called in to help

Originally Posted by Asp

Generally speaking, a Major Incident is where the onsite resources are unable to cope with the incident

glad to see i wasn't dreaming that one.
but the issue is now looking a lot clearer

[Dave Brand]

Anybody else spot the irony here? The original confusion appears to have been caused by a change in terminology apparently intended to avoid confusion!

. . . and the moral is?

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

. . . and the moral is?

Ignore Dave Brand as he`s becoming old and senile !!!!!!

[Peter Harding]

becoming ?

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

. . . & a report form should never contain comments like "Car 7 hit car 4 " - that's an opinion. It should be written as "contact occurred" & the events leading to the contact described, with the aid of a diagram to clarify to enable the Clerk of the Course to make an informed decision as to culpability.

Off Topic: I was RECENTLY given report forms which were in the handy "Tick the box and fill in the numbers" style. Among the options:

• Car ___ crashed into Car ___
• Car ___ rammed Car ___

Erm... NO!

[Mark Mitchell]

There is currently a tick box for "Car Lost Control".........how do we know that?

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

There is currently a tick box for "Car Lost Control".........how do we know that?

I thought it was the driver who was supposed to be in control. In my limited experience if the car's in control you're already on your way to the scene of the accident .

Steve

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

Ignore Dave Brand as he`s becoming old and senile !!!!!!

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

becoming ?

Dave Brand . . . who's he?