Formula Honda

[Dan Friel]

plenty of chat about Forumla Honda (600) going about at the moment. I'm still a bit unconvinced about the series (why not race in F Fordies somewhere).. I think marshalling half hour races in the wet and James Pickford strolling off into the distance have something to do with it... but i'll take a fresh opinion this season.. so, can someone help convince me and answer the following queries?

This years calendar?
How much does a car cost (new and old)?
How may entrants this year?
Probable running costs?
Why is F Honda better than F Ford?

[DSMJUNIOR]

10 meetings, 13 races. Cadwell, Pembrey, Croft, Oulton, Mallory,Snet (2),Lydden, Brands, Donington.

New 17K + VAT. S/H 8k up.

12 or 14 definitely paid up, hopefully about 18, possibly more. (this series lacks proper publicity!!)

7k per season upwards. most expensive bit entries, testing fees. (thanks Octagon!)

for the answer to your last question, try to watch (and hear) both cars in action, you'll know. For starters:

Fraction of the cost.

14000 rpm; 6 speed sequential box, V little more than a family saloon engine/ box.

Slicks and wings.

I've driven both. For me there is no comparison.I am amazed that Honda don't get behind this, they could consign FF to the history books where it belongs. Please go and watch and make you own mind up.Better still, spend a couple of hundred or so and have a go yourself.

[Dan Friel]

try to watch (and hear) both cars in action, you'll know

Ok, why are F Hondas better for spectators / drivers? I'm not sure that slicks and wings make them better to watch, but is this better for driver development?

[27tim]

All I think when I see FH is that I'd hate to haeva shunt in one, they look a bit on the dangerous side!

[DSMJUNIOR]

why do you say that 27Tim?

Dan, I would say it's different for driver development. A car that slides as soon as you turn it can teach a huge degree of car control technique, I think. you don't get that to the same extent with the Hondas I agree. However, where do you take that skill? there is precious little else where the cars are so 'loose'.

from my experience spectators prefer FH to FF because they look and sound like the big boys toys and the racing is generally close enough without looking stupid. Do people really enjoy watching half the field tangle wheels and crash? Maybe they do!

it's all a matter of opinion but i would say again, try it yourself, or at least watch one run and you can decide for yourself.

[27tim]

DSMJUNIOR,

To me they just look unsafe, I had a look at one a while back at brands and it didn't exaclty look substantial to me, not a great deal of crash protection also the drivers head looked very exposed. I wouldn't want to race one. But thats just me

I do admit I hardly studied it though, I could be totally wrong.

[Tomgreen]

FFord consigned to the history books where it belongs?? What planet are you from?? Just one other thing DSM......what are you talking about?

[jamesb]

I'll be doing selected races in both this year. Oulton and Anglsey. The FFord is an old one, but I won't get near newer with my budget.

As far as I'm concerned, maybe the FHonda's are a bit unsafe in a shunt, but so is the 79 van dieman I'm racing, so it evens out. If I wanted safe I'd drive the FPA, or Zip ford (no, wait, that's just hyped as safe)

If ever single seater had a spike in the centre of the steering wheel, maybe driving standards would improve, FFord only had loads of big wheels tangling crashes because of the young hot-shoes trying to prove something, fill the cars with middle aged business men, and notice how few bumps there are (CFPA??)

[DSM]

OK Tomgreen, you're a FF fan. tell me what's inherently good about the Formula? I don't mean it's marketing or it's position in the hierarchy of the sport. I mean in terms of chassis sophistication, engine specs. driver satisfaction, track performance, value for money and so on.

I appreciate that one good thing is that there are lots of easily affordable cars after all these years but that's not relevant to now or the future.

I'm also aware that FH is not run or promoted properly and that the cars could be improved. But if, say, FH was run as and achieved the same levels of performance and quality overall as the Radicals have in Sports, how would FF compare then?

[Tomgreen]

NO, you started this by saying FFord should be where it belongs-in the history books. You should be the one explaining yourself. Just why should it be confined to the history books.
The reason i like FFord is because the racing is so good. Now you can correst me but i thought most SPECTATORS go to watch racing........
Now if you can produce a Formula Honda festival at Brands Hatch then maybe i might get off my arse and come and watch.
PS Radicals filled a gap in the market.....FH just added yet another single seater formula that will fizzle out in a few years like FPA.

[DSM]

I guess you don't have anything to say.

The overall quality of racing has little to do with the car being raced A full grid of FH, FPA or whatever has the possibility of producing close, good to watch racing - even cicus acts like the Legends. I wonder if you just like the accidents?

My point is that, from a technical and affordability point of view, FH, radicals and other motorcycle engined racecars make far more sense. The sad thing is that because of vested interests in the sport and the shortsightedness that Honda has always shown, certainly with regard to its cars in the UK, the ultimate potential will never be realised.

I would ask you to consider, from a competitor's point of view, the idea of a relatively simple composite tub, with small but genuine wings, durable slicks powered by any one of a range of engines with multi-valves, multi-cams, sequential box, injection, digital programmable ignition, forced induction, which can be picked up for hundreds of pounds, run all season with little maintenance and would destroy a FF on the track and be far more rewarding to drive. (bear in mind that a FH is little slower than a Zetec now, even with it's tiny engine).

And all this could be done for maybe a quarter of what it costs to race Zetecs in the UK.

I see that you're only looking at this from a spectator's point of view. in that case you're right. Full grids are essential and FH won't have that in the foreseeable because of the lack of proper marketing etc. Most spectators also go for the accidents so FF will continue to survive.

One final point. I know quite a few DRIVERS who've driven both FF and FH. I don't know any who prefer the Ford. Any drivers out there who would correct me? (polite and reasoned answers only , please)

[Mekola]

Formula Honda: In Argentina we have (or had) a FH. It started at mid-90s and later declined; now looks dissapeared. I remember the best year was 1994 when the dominators were Esteban Tuero and Emiliano Spataro between others.

[av8rirl]

Originally posted by DSMJUNIOR
I am amazed that Honda don't get behind this, they could consign FF to the history books where it belongs.

I don't really care for the arguement over FH v FF but why do you think that FF should be consigned to the history books? Several people have asked this question, but its been ignored in replies. When you answer that question, then proceed with the rest of the discussion.

[AndyF]

The Formula Ford cars are very popular, especially as classic FFord - it will be interesting to see if the Formula Honda cars survive!?

[louis]

formula fords don't seem to be so popular this year if the entry list for the main series is to go by.

[DSMJUNIOR]

av8rirl. You're the second person to ask me to explain. Where do you get several from?

I'm sorry you're all having such difficulty understanding my argument. If you recap you will see that I have justified my statement. Once more I'll try to summarise but then you're on your own.

FF is outdated technology, irrelevant to progress witin motorsport and is maintained for reasons significantly other than the sport. There are many other (not just FH) more relevant opportunities for us all to move on to.

I'm sorry guys, if you can't make your own argument or understand what I'm saying .... I've got better things to do. Bye.

[Dan Friel]

DSM - I have seen plenty of Formula Honda races.. see first post.

I think marshalling half hour races in the wet and James Pickford strolling off into the distance have something to do with it... but i'll take a fresh opinion this season..

Would fancy a go in a FH, testing for a couple of hundred quid you reckon.. compares well against FZ.

You're agruement about outdated tecnology is fair enough.. but I'm not sure everyone understands what you're saying and perhaps explaination of why FF is now out dated is needed? Are motorbike engines the future of british motorsport / the car industry?? Do FH cars get updated each year - when was the car first designed / built?

FF seems the mmore progressive forumla to me.. although that doesn't mean that i think the cost is a good thing..

This is a discussion forum where such matters need to be thought through.. my mind is open to the subject..

[av8rirl]

Originally posted by DSMJUNIOR
FF is outdated technology, irrelevant to progress witin motorsport and is maintained for reasons significantly other than the sport.

DSMJUNIOR: Like Dan, I too would like to know what is out-dated about FF. I am assuming that we are all talking about Zetecs and not 1600's! Also like Dan, my mind is open to the subject. I am not involved in FF but would like to know your reasons for giving it bad press?

[louis]

formula ford zetec rev to 6,000 rpm
formula honda rev to over 13,000 rpm mmm. no contenst there.

formula honda look the better with slicks and wings,were formula ford has none of that.

who ever said they formula honda looked dangerous is talking **** and should try to improve their motorsport knowledge. As formula honda look identicle to a formula ford zetec inside the cockpit.

[Tomgreen]

revs have jack **** to do with the whole discussion.
I still can't see anywhere any explanation as to why FFord should be confined to the history books. So what is this technology that FH has that is so up to date then?

I AM NOT STUPID DSM BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY.

[jamesb]

I'll attempt to answer the question then.

Formula ford should be consigned to the history books because as a professional series it no longer fulfills it's original purpose. The series was originally THE place to learn your trade, as we all know, so many huge F1 names have done FFord. (this is why it still has some prestige I feel, trading off it's long dead reputation, like so many F1 greats earning a living by dancing with Atomic Kitten at glitzy parties.)

The techniques employed in FFord racing are difficult to master, and have no use when you move up. A car with so little grip must be set up quite soft at the rear, for traction. This gives you a car that understeers alot. To counteract this you have to manhandle the back or the car, and slide it alot. This is very entertaining for the spectator, and fun for the driver I agree. Once you move up to.... I don't know, Formula Renault??? you cannot do this. You have much more grip, and you cannot throw the rear around and still be quick. So why did you spend the last year (several) learning how to? for the one time you get sideways in a race? Karting teaches you that to, and it's hardly work the years in FFord. Set up is learned, but not when considering aerodynamic requirement which often have to send setup in the opposite direction to the expected in FFord. How many FFord cars would run negative Ackermann for example? By learning that such things should go one way for better speed, then to be told the opposite is re-learning things that you could have jumped straight into in the first place.

Formula Ford is a very good spectator sport, but as a means of forwarding one's career, it is a waste of most peoples time these days. That is why young drivers are not doing it, and why Zip Ford is being pushed so hard. Karts, Zip, Renault. It's already carved in stone by the MSA and Mr Hines. FFord is dead already as a pro series, it just doesn't know it yet.

Oh, and FHonda is based on a hillclimber designed in the early 80's by John Corbyn. Becoming F600, then Formula Honda, it has suffered from bad promotion, and rumours of it being unsafe. So? it tells you on the ticket motorsport is dangerous, grow some balls. If you want to see what development has taken place, watch FHonda (with it's high nose, and uprated engine) this year. Matching ARP F3 times in testing last week. Still not quick enough? Watch the JEDI monoposto cars. Formula Hondas with an engine twice as big. Should destroy everything, FFords, FVauxhalls, you name it. I though it was quicker than the FPA.

Yes, I prefer FH to FF, because FH is quicker, more fun, and not a career ender. Well, unless you crash heavily, but that's the same anywhere.

If you read all the way to the end, please let me know what you think, because nobody is going to be right about this, it's all just opinions. That was mine :-)

[Paul Rayner]

Interesting points, jamesb, but I think a lot of people are having knee-jerk reactions about Ford. Last season the grids were capacity thanks to Jenson Button, this year, thanks to Kimi Raikkonen, the Renault grids are.
As Autosport said, Formula Ford is a victim of "fashion", and with a bit of work things should swing back in the other direction a bit in years to come, perhaps Formula Ford Junior will have to be stopped.
In my opinion Formula Ford could benefit from the sort of organisation press coverage Renault has got - controls on testing, components and development control costs, which have got way out of hand. When you can race in Fomula Renault for a similar price to Formula Ford, why bother with Ford? Renault's closer to F1.

When a driver decides which series to race in there are many factors, of which some of what I think are the most important are:

1) Price
2) Promotion
3) Hype

The first one's simple, a driver will race in the best championship possible with the money they've got.
The second one shows how much exposure a driver is going to get from a series - in Formula Honda this is zero, it's a club series with hardly any promotion at all. With Renault & Ford it's a great deal. Many more people will get to know your name if you race on the TOCA package, plus people watch out for the champions.
The third factor, hype, is what the driver thinks they can get out of the series. "Button raced in Formula Ford, he's in F1. Raikkonen raced in FRenault, he's in F1". Who's come out of Formula Honda? Compare last season's top drivers. Ford - Dahlgren's in F3, Long's in Renault for a top team. Renault - Breeze & Antinucci are in F3. Honda - Buncombe's in Renault for Saxon.

If it continues as a club series with 20 year old cars then Formula Honda will not go anywhere. It needs top class promotion, organisation and better exposure than it's got to propel drivers up through the formulae to F1.

Again if you read all this then thanks, it's only my opinion.

[jamesb]

and there you have both sides.
fancy taking up politics Paul? we'd make a better duo than Tony and what's his name?

[Dan Friel]

Good to see constructive comments

[27tim]

Louis,

Originally posted by louis
[B]formula ford zetec rev to 6,000 rpm
formula honda rev to over 13,000 rpm mmm. no contenst there.

Ah right, so the motor revs higher, I see, must be better then. As for there being 'no contest' I didn't realise there was one for which championship had the highest reving engine???

formula honda look the better with slicks and wings,were formula ford has none of that.

Hmmm, funny that, last time I drove a FF either the tyres were badly worn or it was on slicks.

who ever said they formula honda looked dangerous is talking **** and should try to improve their motorsport knowledge.

Personal insults, thats always constructive and helps get your point across.

formula honda look identicle to a formula ford zetec inside the cockpit.

Well thats strange, last time I tested the Vector FF it had padding on either side of the cockpit around the head in line with current saftey thinking. Still the Honda must have that too as you said they are identical. Or perhaps you might want to improve your motorsport knowledge.

At the end of the day one is a club championship with club drivers and the other a internationally renowned championship with some possible future world champions battling it out. If someone gave you the choice of free drives in one or the other...that would be a tough choice NOT! I'm not knocking it but lets keep things in perspective.