What if it had been Williams?

[laudaman]

Someone's probably beaten me to this point (this is my first post on the subject) but if Montoya had moved over for Ralf, then I bet the FIArari would have them chucked them out for the rest of the season.

Also, after the race, our German friend said that he didn't like winning this way. Well if he doesn't, he shouldn't have passed Rubens then, the stupid German t--t!

I also refuse to believe that TGF had no part in yesterday's disgrace.

That's my general opinion on the matter. I have had it with F1 - it has been going down the pan for 5 years now and until something is done about it (which, considering Max & Bernie's beloved red cars are doing the biz, there won't be), I have better things to do with my time.

[Gt_R]

If Ralf was in Barrichello's shoes, JPM in Michaels, and if ordered, Ralf refuses to let JPM through, you would get a load of criticism stuck up the arse of Ralf.

Who knows for sure if Michael is being consulted when the idea comes up? Perhaps he was not involved in making the decision, but was just told the decision by his superiors? Maybe he is the instigator? We do not know...and until further light is shed on this, we have to keep sensible.

[EvilPumpkin]

It's very easy to blame the drivers for this, but the real problem lies in an organisation that allows teams to get away with this kind of behaviour. Ferrari aren't the only team that have ever done this - we all know that.

They're possibly the only team to have done it in such a spectacular manner - and I do wonder if the reason that it didn't happen until the very last few minutes is reasonable proof that both Rubens and Michael were expressing their displeasure in the most visible way they could - by making sure there was no doubt as to what had happened.

The bottom line is that F1/FIA have permitted this before with other teams and like all sorts of other "loopholes" Ferrari chose to do this in order to ensure their best chance of getting where they want to achieve.

It's not nice. It's not sportsmanlike. But it's a product of the environment they are working in - and I do believe that most other teams would have done the same in their position with the same circumstances.

The ones at fault here are the ones who permit this practice to continue and do nothing to stop it.

[f1manoz]

It wouldn't have happened at Williams for the simple fact neither driver would have been stupid enough to agree to such a ridiculous clause. Plus Williams, for the most part, don't introduce contracts such as the one that Ferrari have. They believe in fair play and actual racing.

JPM and Ralf both would have said 'jam it' and won the race!

[calais]

see, williams would never do this because patrick and frank are something the toad and fat boy brawn will never be.....................racers!!!!!!!!!

[Spudgun]

As I've posted in another thread, there's some BS floating around here. Michael said in the press conference that the didn't know until the final lap that the team were going to make Rubens back off. But according to the BBC, the team was in contact with Michael about it 8 laps from the end of the race.

They've already blatantly tarnished the sport, there's no need for them to make it worse by lying about it.

[laudaman]

Michael didn't know until the final lap,eh? So how come I realised what was going to happen 5 laps from the finish when he started closing in on RB at a ridiculous rate?

Also, did anyone note Allen's fake surprise at the end....stupid

[Red]

Originally posted by f1manoz
JPM and Ralf both would have said 'jam it' and won the race!

Once. Twice maybe but not the third time....

As for no.1 and no.2, which does not exist at Williams... It's not that complicated. They're both of a pretty equal value as drivers and maybe they don't know if putting all eggs in the same basket is a good idea. And which basket. Anyway, Ferrari had a no. 1 and 2 strategy almost every season, for example Prost/Mansell or Prost/Alesi, but does anyone recall what was the situation when Berger and Alesi partnered at Ferrari?

[Tristan]

Well McLaren do it, Ferrari do it. Everyone else doesn't. Why is it that it's the two wealthiest teams that feel the need to pull this stunt??

[Liz]

According to Paragraph 48 of the Sporting Code, this is illegal no matter WHICH team does it. In the two races where Ralf was asked to move over, he did not do it -- "radio trouble" took care of the situation as I recall -- and no visible punishment was levied. And from the look on Ralf's face yesterday I would say that he is not amused by the situation either. Perhaps it was only TGF who was badly brought up?

Maybe we should add to TGF's punishment that he has to use whatever Ralf used on his hair. Because he's worth it.

[DNQ]

I was just about to say something when I realised F1Manoz has already said it for me - it would not have happened. Only Ferrari is capable.

[steve_r]

Maybe MS is telling the truth when he said he didn't know until the end. He was putting in fastest lap after fastest lap, obviously pushing to the limit, which he probably would not have risked if he knew what was going to happen.

Still an absolute disgrace though.

I don't think Williams would have done the same if the roles were reversed.

[Andrew2001]

Look, don't bother comparing it because with Williams, and McLaren for that matter, Frank and Ron DON'T let it get to that situation. The two drivers of each team race, and they race hard for wins, not until one is mathematically impossible to get the title does the team start to back one driver and THAT is the BEST way to run a grnad prix team.

Lauda, it HAS NOT been going down for the last 5 years, where the **** did you get that idea? 1998, 1999 and 2000 were fantastic seasons I believe. Especially the last race in 1999, Mika at his very best. 2000 was disappointing but Mika proved himself to be one of the greats in F1 and right up there somewhere near TGF.
2001 was, though a joke for me, it was so boring overall because Williamsa nd McLaren took points off each other rather than Ferrari making it a very boring result....But DC hada great season.

[laudaman]

Andrew2001, what I mean is that since '98, every GP has been a procession (Except wet races) with no overtaking and therefore, absolutely tedious to watch. Also, apart from Spa, Monza and Suzuka, there are no really great tracks left and the spectacle of the sport has been taken away and this trend is set to continue, I'm afraid.

[Lee Janotta]

Williams _might_ do this some day, but it'll be a totally different situation. _Never_ this early in the season would they pull something like that. If it got down to the last 3 races, and Ralph was totally out of contention, but JPM had a shot at the championship... Then yes, I believe they'd change the results. But this... Reubens is the only threat to Schumacher, was clearly fastest all weekend... Ferarri has _no_ reason to think they won't win every race for the rest of the year, but they still won't allow their drivers to race! They won't let the fans enjoy the sport one bit! We're being force-fed Schumacher until we vomit!

If Williams did it, at a more reasonable time in the season, the fans would accept it, because it'd be in pursuit of de-throning M$, and most people at least support the underdog, especially now, when we're so desperate for competition. But Ferarri will easily take the constructor's championship, and rightly so, their car is a class killer, like the '92 Williams. But manipulating the championship so blatantly towards one driver so he can quite literally obliterate the history of Grand Prix racing by resetting every record.... It's absolutely disgusting. They're trying to tie up the WDC by Hockenheim! It flies in the face of _everything_ the sport is supposed to be about, allowing corporate executives to dictate the outcome of the entire season.

[drexel]

So we can just assume how the championship will go now?
"OK teams, don't use team orders until it's really close, also because we wan't to keep it close"

That sounds just as contrived to me...Please the masses, or play the game. The only arguement should be whether they broke the rules, and if they did, then technically teamorders should never be used.

[Mania]

I rememeber Ralf was very angry last year when Patrick asked him to move over for his boy Juan. Ralf refused and he was perfectly entitled to do so. There is no number 1 in the Williams team and just because someone on the pit wall thinks one driver can go quicker then the other - doesent mean that there should be a moving over situation. If one fellow is quicker, he can try a pass on the track or wait for the pit stops. Simple as that.

The Williams team are probably less political than others but they arent angels either. Anyone remember '81 ?

[Glen]

Big difference, between mid-race and one driver holding another up, and simply taking the quicker guy back one place for no genuine reason. I believe Ralf was wrong to knowingly sit in front of his team-mate, that he knew was in with a better chance.

[Mania]

If the guy was quicker - let him try a pass. Simple as that.

[Mr V]

when patrick asked rafe to move over (twice) last year, both drivers were on a different fuel strategy, at silverstone especially, had rafe allowed jpm through, it was though that he could possibly have had more of a go at rubens!

i would like to point out, that when patrick requested the moves last year, it was for the good of the williams team, not their drivers with regards to the championship!

[Damon]

Exactly Mr v. Also Frank Williams' thinking has always been, "you may race each other but do not take each other off the track". Plain and simple, Mansell provided some fantastic duels this way. Anyone remember Silverstone '87?

Williams see the constructors championship as the most important title, if one of their drivers gets the WDC as well then all the better. That is how F1 racing should be. If there were more people with Frank Williams' spirit in the F1 paddock then the sport would be in a lot better shape.

[Gt_R]

Cut the BS!!

A whole load of BS is floating around (sounds familiar?). Indeed what Ferrari did in Austria is disappointing, and if Williams or Mclaren does the same it does not change that fact.

But cut the bulls to try to excuse Williams and Mclaren for team orders and only criticise Ferrari for it. It just goes to show what a shallow fan of F1 you are. So Patrick Head think its cynical? So Head is a racer who wont let it happen? F*** it... he seems to forget the days when he is involved with race-fixing between 2 teams doesnt it? So its too early in the season to implement team orders when Ferrari is superior? Oh so we have forgotten that Mclaren did the same at the first race in 98 with a car one lap quicker?

I don't deny that what Ferrari did was unpleasant. But stop all the **** that make Williams, Mclaren, Head, Frank, Ron seem like saints... unless thats how little you know of F1.

[drexel]

So what were Williams doing in 93, with teamorders helping Prost....except that was in an underhanded way.

How about Japan 97, JV racing with no intention of winning. They just sent out JV to hold up Michael and hope someone would overtake him.

[Gt_R]

As Luca had said, there are too many people showing "fake moralism". In the paddock, in this forum.

[Liz]

And there are a lot of us showing TRUE morality. There are people in this discussion who believe that it DOES matter how you win, and that just because you can buy and corrupt everyone in your way does not make it right, and buying and corrupting your way to the top does not mean you are a winner. It just means you are the biggest crook in the paddock.

It's wrong when you do it in business, it's wrong when you do it in politics, it's wrong when you do it to your wife or your children, and it's wrong when you do it in sport. And saying "everyone does it" is just simply a lie, and even if it were true that MOST people would do anything at all for money, it would not make me turn immoral just to be part of the crowd. I don't want anything I haven't earned.

Lying, cheating, stealing and corruption of others in the pursuit of anything is wrong. No false morality there at all.