Height of marshal flag posts

[ChrisDanger]

Hi guys,

I'm involved in a local race series here in Cape Town. I'm not a marshal, but I thought it was best to ask here for some information.

There have been some problems recently with drivers or riders missing yellow or red flags, it seems to me because the flags are hidden from view. A biker got seriously injured at the last meeting, and people are being disqualified for passing under yellows, simply because their vision of the flag was obscured by another car.

I was wondering if there's a recommendation by the FIA or something on the minimum height of marshal flag posts, or if there are any regulations regarding visibility of the flags.

Many thanks for your time.

Chris

[NewYankee01]

unfortunately there's not, thats why one of the things club drivers complain about most is not seeing flags, its up to the circuit, youve either got croft which is low posts and quite near the circuit or silverstone which are raised up to a silly height of up to 6 foot and miles away from the circuit, unless anyone can correct me with their blue book...

could just be a spate of events that the circuit's never experienced before, it could be the riders, its so easy to miss flags when racing someone though...

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

its up to the circuit,

No it's not. It's up to the governing body issuing the Track Licence.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

silverstone which are raised up to a silly height of up to 6 foot and miles away from the circuit

This from someone who, when they initially posted on here was bragging about 'hanging from the debris fencing to flag'....



The ideal hight for any flag point depends on a whole range of factors -

1. Line of sight for the drivers.
2. Line of sight for the flag marshals - if you cannot see the cars early enough you cannot blue flag them early enough.
3. The topography of the circuit.
4. The background against which the flags are displayed.
5. The type of vehicle being raced.

The further away from the circuit the flag point is, the higher you can place the flag point without it becoming a problem.

I seem to remember we had a set of drawings we used to use for flag training sessions that illustrated the drivers eye view of the flags - I think it may have originated from a driver, possibly Chris Maries, as it had all the hallmarks of Chris's sense of humour.
I may even have a copy up in the loft - if I find it next time I'm up there I'll scan it and post it here.

[garybirch]

Seen the tower at post 4 at Castle Combe? We call it Stalug Luft! It must be 10ft up so flags are 15-18ft up, but it works for that position as the cars come up the hill towards Quarry.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by exflagman

This from someone who, when they initially posted on here was bragging about 'hanging from the debris fencing to flag'....



The ideal hight for any flag point depends on a whole range of factors -

1. Line of sight for the drivers.
2. Line of sight for the flag marshals - if you cannot see the cars early enough you cannot blue flag them early enough.
3. The topography of the circuit.
4. The background against which the flags are displayed.
5. The type of vehicle being raced.

The further away from the circuit the flag point is, the higher you can place the flag point without it becoming a problem.

I seem to remember we had a set of drawings we used to use for flag training sessions that illustrated the drivers eye view of the flags - I think it may have originated from a driver, possibly Chris Maries, as it had all the hallmarks of Chris's sense of humour.
I may even have a copy up in the loft - if I find it next time I'm up there I'll scan it and post it here.

well not quite the debris fencing! i read the comments after on, that thread and they were quite funny but out of context all the same, if its up to licensing purposes why do circuits differ with seemingly the same type of setup of the corners? i could think of worse but take donington, all posts are pretty much 30 feet from the racing line but yet even with the different parts of the circuit all the posts are the same height because the posts themselves have been mass produced... it doesnt seem like 1 is a foot taller than another, there's certainly different corners a slow chicane and a quick left right that is quite hard to blue flag properly but as i say all the posts are the same?!

[FATNACKER]

Originally Posted by garybirch

Seen the tower at post 4 at Castle Combe? We call it Stalug Luft! It must be 10ft up so flags are 15-18ft up, but it works for that position as the cars come up the hill towards Quarry.

Well it dont work for a certain Sports/GT driver i spoke to one meeting, He said we are not looking up there for flag signals, We are looking at the apex and the barrier level flags Anyway you cant wave a flag properly up there cos the debris fence gets in the way!! Cracking view though!!

[Paul Newns]

Not all of the posts at Donington are the same height, although granted most are. Post 6 is very high, as is 19.

Personally, I prefer to be at ground level, provided I can see the next posts in each direction and get a good enough view of the approaching cars to allow me to blue them in good time. Not all posts and all circuits lend themselves to that, unfortunately.

My favourite flag point of all time was the old Deer Leep at Oulton. Ground level, just the width of the Armco between me and the cars. Drivers couldn't ail to see the flags from there!

[Chigley]

but take donington, all posts are pretty much 30 feet from the racing line but yet even with the different parts of the circuit all the posts are the same height

My friend you are shooting yourself in the foot!

Donington does not have posts that are all the same height. Post 7 Craner Curves (The Tower), Post 17 Coppice, Post 20 Dunlop Straight, Post 38 Goddards (The Cage). Each post is sighted so that the drivers, flaggies and observers can see each other and are near enough, Post 7 excepted, in the line of sight.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

Not all of the posts at Donington are the same height, although granted most are. Post 6 is very high, as is 19.

Personally, I prefer to be at ground level, provided I can see the next posts in each direction and get a good enough view of the approaching cars to allow me to blue them in good time. Not all posts and all circuits lend themselves to that, unfortunately.

My favourite flag point of all time was the old Deer Leep at Oulton. Ground level, just the width of the Armco between me and the cars. Drivers couldn't ail to see the flags from there!

yes ive heard about 6 or something needing a ladder to get up! i was mindful of that post when writing but never mind, whoever doesnt mind the flagging points from copse to maggots must be a sadist, the first time i did them posts i was like eh! not very practical, i dont fancy a 6 foot fall

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

My favourite flag point of all time was the old Deer Leep at Oulton. Ground level, just the width of the Armco between me and the cars. Drivers couldn't ail to see the flags from there!

Fantastic spot. If the driver didn't see the flag you could always poke him with it.

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

whoever doesnt mind the flagging points from copse to maggots must be a sadist, the first time i did them posts i was like eh! not very practical, i dont fancy a 6 foot fall

Done them often, no problem. You just need to be mindful of keeping the flags low. Don't worry if you forget, I expect someone will remind you on your scanner...

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

yes ive heard about 6 or something needing a ladder to get up! i was mindful of that post when writing but never mind,

Interesting

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

whoever doesnt mind the flagging points from copse to maggots must be a sadist, the first time i did them posts i was like eh! not very practical, i dont fancy a 6 foot fall

There's nothing wrong with the posts from Copse to Maggots. Maggots, particularly, is great for blue flagging... you can see the cars for ages and I have to be careful not to put the flag out too much before the previous posts

The are also accessible from the bank so no climbing required. As for the 6' drop... I think you'd have to try quite hard to fall over it.

If you want to complain about Silverstone posts (and I have, officially, where appropriate), try Becketts Centre (drivers never look at you so useless for blue flagging), Club In & Out (who thought those debris fences were a good idea?), Priory (bridge in the way for blue flagging), Brooklands (new fence limits view of Luffield In)

PJ

[ChrisDanger]

Cool, thanks guys. It seems we're having age-old problems then. I'm new to the game, and just thought things could be safer. I guess motor racing is simply a dangerous preoccupation.

[exflagman]

[QUOTE=Paul Newns;2959677]My favourite flag point of all time was the old Deer Leep at Oulton. Ground level, just the width of the Armco between me and the cars. Drivers couldn't ail to see the flags from there![/QUOTE]
And if they did you could always hit them with the flag next time round. The look on Gordon Spice's face when I did it is a treasured memory!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

Interesting



There's nothing wrong with the posts from Copse to Maggots. Maggots, particularly, is great for blue flagging... you can see the cars for ages and I have to be careful not to put the flag out too much before the previous posts

The are also accessible from the bank so no climbing required. As for the 6' drop... I think you'd have to try quite hard to fall over it.

If you want to complain about Silverstone posts (and I have, officially, where appropriate), try Becketts Centre (drivers never look at you so useless for blue flagging), Club In & Out (who thought those debris fences were a good idea?), Priory (bridge in the way for blue flagging), Brooklands (new fence limits view of Luffield In)

PJ

they are good for flagging but if youre right handed which most people are it a bit weird trying to get the flag far out enough of the post... thats why i dont like them much and i wouldnt go to silverstone that much to try all those posts anyway but yeah i can definately see your point about the posts

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by ChrisDanger

Cool, thanks guys. It seems we're having age-old problems then. I'm new to the game, and just thought things could be safer. I guess motor racing is simply a dangerous preoccupation.

If there are serious concerns - and it sounds like there are in this case - you could do a lot worse than to contact the local marshals organisation.

If there's an issue with flag visibility, you can be damn sure that the local flaggies have noticed it already. One of the first things we do when we go to a post is try to figure out what the driver line of sight is (or rider - which of course might be completely different).

It's entirely possible that the circuit wasn't quite the same in terms of vegetation, advertising hoardings etc. etc. when the flag posts went in - and most circuits rely on the marshals to let them know if there are visibility problems (doesn't mean they'll act on them of course!). In these more enlightened days, flag posts - where possible - will be sited in a position that is less likely to endanger the crew that are on them as well, so there may have been compromise between visibility and safety.

If it's not possible to raise or move the posts, the circuit management might consider putting in repeater lights on posts with difficult visibility - that's been done at a couple of circuits that I know of - including Mondello park, where poor visibility in rain can be an issue.

The circuit management may not be aware of the issue in the first place. There is no benefit to them in having unnecessary accidents, either financially or from an infrastructure perspective, since accidents tend to cause damage to the circuit.

Best suggestion would be to contact the Marshals Club and find out if they've noticed the same issue and then put together a concerted approach to the circuit and/or local motorsport licencing body.

[paul leedham]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

Not all of the posts at Donington are the same height, although granted most are. Post 6 is very high, as is 19.

Changes at Donington! last time I flagged at post 6 (Hollywood) it was only one step up, however post 7 (craner curves) that's a ladder job
same at post 19 (coppice out) one step up but post 17 (coppice in) looks high but not been up there.
sorry Paul

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

they are good for flagging but if youre right handed which most people are it a bit weird trying to get the flag far out enough of the post.

...and I thought all flaggers were ambidextrous!

Some years ago at Castle Combe they were having trouble with drivers not seeing yellow flags and did a double video of a lap from two saloon cars. the first was a drivers eye lens which showed the view and also had an obsrver witha press switch which he held down whenever hew saw va flag. the following car had a wide angle lens which showed the whole scene. The clever bit was the observer's button illuminated a red light in the rear screen of the first car, which showed on the second video. From this it is possible to see what the drivers see of each post and where the flags are seen by the drivers. Combe then produced track maps with the flag viability
marked for each post. Worked well at time, but don't know if they have updated it with the track changes.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

...and I thought all flaggers were ambidextrous!

Definitely not. I am, although I prefer to flag left handed. I find that you're more likely to get the flag wrapped up aroung the pole that way, which I put down to it being something I was doing. At a later date on post with a flaggie who was a definite leftie he reckoned because most are right handed the weave of the cloth takes on a twist that makes it harder to flag left handed. He had by now got his own flags which worked perfectly left handed but not so good right which suggested he might have a point.

Think of it like trying to wind a cable or a hose pipe the opposite way to what it's used to.

[AMP Marshal]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

If there are serious concerns - and it sounds like there are in this case - you could do a lot worse than to contact the local marshals organisation.

If there's an issue with flag visibility, you can be damn sure that the local flaggies have noticed it already. One of the first things we do when we go to a post is try to figure out what the driver line of sight is (or rider - which of course might be completely different).

It's entirely possible that the circuit wasn't quite the same in terms of vegetation, advertising hoardings etc. etc. when the flag posts went in - and most circuits rely on the marshals to let them know if there are visibility problems (doesn't mean they'll act on them of course!). In these more enlightened days, flag posts - where possible - will be sited in a position that is less likely to endanger the crew that are on them as well, so there may have been compromise between visibility and safety.

If it's not possible to raise or move the posts, the circuit management might consider putting in repeater lights on posts with difficult visibility - that's been done at a couple of circuits that I know of - including Mondello park, where poor visibility in rain can be an issue.

The circuit management may not be aware of the issue in the first place. There is no benefit to them in having unnecessary accidents, either financially or from an infrastructure perspective, since accidents tend to cause damage to the circuit.

Best suggestion would be to contact the Marshals Club and find out if they've noticed the same issue and then put together a concerted approach to the circuit and/or local motorsport licencing body.

I think that covers it IMO. About lefty versus righty, I try to work with both hands, it can be difficult comfort wise, especially with blue flagging, the " display / hide " maneuver, but it helps when posted on one side of a track as apposed to the other side.

[ChrisDanger]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

Some years ago at Castle Combe they were having trouble with drivers not seeing yellow flags and did a double video of a lap from two saloon cars. the first was a drivers eye lens which showed the view and also had an obsrver witha press switch which he held down whenever hew saw va flag. the following car had a wide angle lens which showed the whole scene. The clever bit was the observer's button illuminated a red light in the rear screen of the first car, which showed on the second video. From this it is possible to see what the drivers see of each post and where the flags are seen by the drivers. Combe then produced track maps with the flag viability
marked for each post. Worked well at time, but don't know if they have updated it with the track changes.

This sounds interesting. Any idea where I can get more info about it?

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

they are good for flagging but if youre right handed which most people are it a bit weird trying to get the flag far out enough of the post...

I've never had a problem with that on those posts, personally.

PJ

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

It's entirely possible that the circuit wasn't quite the same in terms of vegetation, advertising hoardings etc. etc. when the flag posts went in - and most circuits rely on the marshals to let them know if there are visibility problems

I still remember the first (!) Las Vegas Champ Car race where I complained about an advertising hoarding and asked for it to be moved further away from the corner because the cars hid behind it.

Race control refused...





on the grounds that the reverse side was the 200m board for the corner... They did move it up, though, so it wasn't in line of sight.

PJ

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by ChrisDanger

This sounds interesting. Any idea where I can get more info about it?

Castle Combe circuits

www.castlecombecircuit.co.uk/

[ChrisDanger]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

Castle Combe circuits

www.castlecombecircuit.co.uk/

Thanks