When is a marshal not a marshal?

[numbersix]

...When he/she is an official. But what's an official?

I cannot find any definition of an official in the blue book or any sense whatsoever on the MSA site. The BB refers, in various places, to officials and marshals, and certain jobs like timekeepers I know are always called officials.

There is an officials' section on the MSA site but no definition and yet I'm sure I've seen Chief Marshals posted as Officials in sign-on correspondence and I would have thought that Post Chiefs, certainly Examining Post Chiefs would be regarded as Officials.
So, what's an official?

[The STIG]

Confused?
The question is, is a marshal an official? and if a marshal is an official, then is that marshal an official marshal...

I'll go now.

[Justin Moran]

I had the auspicious job of Stewards runner for the ACO/MSA at last years LMS at Silverstone, I was signed on as a marshal but was included as an official(still didnt get a shirt though!)

[chezza]

Officials...the clerks, deputy clerks, sec of the meeting, MSA steward, club stewards, time keepers...

[Stack]

Originally Posted by chezza

Officials...the clerks, deputy clerks, sec of the meeting, MSA steward, club stewards, time keepers...

Would that be the ones that get paid......

[JimW]

Don't take the wrong way but who cares?

I doubt if the MSA has ever worked out a formal definition but official usually seems to equate to those holding a defined office, as opposed to a generic job. So Clerk of the course/rescue crew for one of each sort. And yes, I know that there are examples where this does not hold good. See the first sentence.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Stack

Would that be the ones that get paid......

No

Jim

[Peter Harding]

The sign-on form is headed "Officials' sign-on" so that makes marshals officials. I am sure somewhere else it will contradict me.

[gachjoel]

I see everyone as an official.

i`m officially a Fire/Incident Marshal
----"---"----" Flag Marshal
----"---"---- an I/O
ect ect !!!!!!!!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

The sign-on form is headed "Officials' sign-on" so that makes marshals officials. I am sure somewhere else it will contradict me.

I'd agree with that, all marshals are officials of the meeting but I'm not really sure it's a subject to get worked up about!

.....and no, race admin, race control etc. don't get usually get paid unless it happens to be their day job....don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone who wears a shirt is "staff".

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

... who cares?

Jim

I do. "The irrational pursuit of knowledge for its own sake."

Also, I noticed this sentence in section C[d] 9 of the Gospel according to Alan Gow:

"• General Conduct – Abuse, assault or threats of
either. Refusal to obey the instructions of an Official."

I was just wondering if a driver was obliged by this ruling to obey the instructions of a marshal?

You can see my train of thought and the fact that I don't have a life.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I do. "The irrational pursuit of knowledge for its own sake."

Oh yes, I do that. The difference is that I try not to care about it.

Also, I noticed this sentence in section C[d] 9 of the Gospel according to Alan Gow:

"• General Conduct – Abuse, assault or threats of
either. Refusal to obey the instructions of an Official."

I was just wondering if a driver was obliged by this ruling to obey the instructions of a marshal?

Good point. A little further searching of the Blue Book still gives no formal definition. However:

Originally Posted by BB Part 1, p16

In addition to licensing 34,000 competitors (many of whom will have attended approved driver training schools), the MSA has over 2,700 licensed officials and over 10,000 registered marshals on its database.

So my example of rescue crew above is wrong as we are licensed, not registered.

Regards

Jim

[numbersix]

Hmm. Licensed persons are issued with annual licences, are they not? Name-tags and stuff like that.
Marshals are registered. Does that mean that a driver is not obliged to obey the instructions of a marshal, I wonder?

And no, I don't care, really. Just inquisitive.

[numbersix]

I think Peter and Piglet have got a handle on this. "Officials of the meeting." Yes. Think that wraps it up. Sorted.

[ALANGRUMPY]

So what is a Senior Official?

Is it someone who sits at the back of race control, smelling of booze, babbling and breaking wind

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Stack

Would that be the ones that get paid......

Certainly not...the only people on that list that are paid are the time keepers...and they are providing a service. All the others are certainly not paid.

Well said Piglet.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by chezza

Certainly not...the only people on that list that are paid are the time keepers...and they are providing a service. All the others are certainly not paid.

Well said Piglet.

Just a guess, not a statement.

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by ALANGRUMPY

So what is a Senior Official?

Is it someone who sits at the back of race control, smelling of booze, babbling and breaking wind

That could be any number of people I know including me! And I'm in no way senior !

[johngee]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Hmm. Licensed persons are issued with annual licences, are they not? Name-tags and stuff like that.
Marshals are registered. Does that mean that a driver is not obliged to obey the instructions of a marshal, I wonder?

'Refusing to obey the instructions of an official' is an offence, regardless of whether that official is a marshal, scrutineer, rescue, clerk of the course, secretary of the meeting etc. etc. - there is no distinction, nor should there be! The only senior officials who can't give instructions, as such, are the stewards of the meeting.

[JimW]

That's a very reassuring view to hear.

Jim

[numbersix]

There was never any doubt in my mind concerning the authority any marshal has to give instructions to drivers and expecting them to adhere. It was just the notion of what an 'official' really is. It seems to me now that there is a destinction between 'Officials of the meeting' which I am confident includes all marshals, and MSA licensed officials who hold specific positions. I knew you guys would come up with a sensible answer one way or another.
Have a great weekend.

[Norbert]

Originally Posted by ALANGRUMPY

So what is a Senior Official?

Is it someone who sits at the back of race control, smelling of booze, babbling and breaking wind

Unless I am mistaken Alan don't you sign on as a senior official????

[Teletubby]

Originally Posted by Norbert

Unless I am mistaken Alan don't you sign on as a senior official????

Voice of experience!

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by ALANGRUMPY

So what is a Senior Official?

Is it someone who sits at the back of race control, smelling of booze, babbling and breaking wind

The MSA now classify me as a "Senior Event Official"; but I can assure you I do not sit at the back of Race Control; (Visit to be sociable during the lunch break), smelling of booze; (I am a professional driver and value my Licence), Babbling!, (well I would classify this as passing on experience to fellow, usually Trainee Marshals); and breaking wind! (Well, I could put my hands up to that one - too many pork pies eaten!!!)
Those that know me will confirm I normally, virtually without exception, am on the 'Bank' as an Observer/Post Chief!!