How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class

[Holt]

I think Toyota has made it plainly clear privateers can't compete for overall victories. They have built a gasoline car, and made it competitive with the Audis.

I find it funny people are still mentioning the "petrol" class in LMP1 while not mentioning the Toyotas.

So, how about giving the privateers something to race for? How about a LMP Privateer and LMP Pro/Manufacturer class.

Gasoline engine or diesel, a privateer has no chance of competing in LMP1 unless they are given a current factory spec LMP like Oreca in 2010.

So the classes can perhaps look like this

LMP1 Factory
LMP1 Privateer
LMP2
GT Pro
GT AM

Maybe LMP2 and LMP Privateer can merge into one class.

[pplater]

I think it's a good idea. The way things are at the moment, Le Mans is something like MotoGP with its mix of strong manufacturer / satellite units like Honda, Yamaha, Ducati and Tech 3 leagues ahead of the more pedestrian CRT bikes.
But we may not see it as it could be an admission of failure by the ACO... Toyota has certainly given us a small glimpse of what a professional, well funded outfit can do with the current petrol/diesel regs.

One wonders whether a works petrol effort from the likes of Toyota, Porsche or BMW would have been able to tackle the diesels between 2006 and 2011?

[deggis]

Why LMP2 is not the privateer class you're looking for?

And there is already a subchampionship in P1... the "Endurance Trophy for Private LMP1 Teams". And I think that makes no sense because Audi & Toyota and rest of the teams do not score points for the same points table. I'd like to see a simpler format, just one overall championship in P1, whether it's named Teams' or Constructors' (latter one is much different to "Manufacturers'" and wouldn't by definition exclude private teams).

Everybody doesn't have to win.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by pplater

One wonders whether a works petrol effort from the likes of Toyota, Porsche or BMW would have been able to tackle the diesels between 2006 and 2011?

Rules are not the same (especially not pre-2011 regs) so what Toyota has done now means nothing in that regard.

[Dead-Eye]

I'm against splitting classes by anything other than tech regs. I wouldn't mind a privateer trophy within P1, with a separate podium ceremony, but still in the same class so that a private car that has a really good day can still be eligible for the overall P1 win. Similar to the Independent's Trophy in the WTCC. And I'd do the same with GTE AM.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by deggis

Everybody doesn't have to win.

Nice one! It's a bit like political correctness in schools (and everywhere else these says), no-one is allowed to lose. Unless privateers can compete for an overall win, I wonder how much value they would see in a class LMP1 win?

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Nice one! It's a bit like political correctness in schools (and everywhere else these says), no-one is allowed to lose. Unless privateers can compete for an overall win, I wonder how much value they would see in a class LMP1 win?

totally agree we do not want any more "classes" P1 should be one class only we can talk about best petrol etc but you enter P1 to win not to get a consolation prize

[Aysedasi]

I appreciate some will say a 'best of the rest' prize is better than nothing - particularly if it helps get the sponsors in......

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's a bit like political correctness in schools (and everywhere else these says), no-one is allowed to lose.

Doesn't this same apply to BoP?

[Speed-King]

I think it's becoming apparent now that the last decade and a half has seen a monumental shift in prototype racing.

Whereas up to the late 90s prototypes were mostly* just GT-cars without a road model (and about as expensive and complicated to run), we have moved to 'F1 cars with a roof' now, with the budgets of factory teams exceeding those of the best funded privateer efforts by more than a magnitude.

Audi and Peugeot have raised the bar to such an extent that privateers have no hope in hell to compete with the manufacturer efforts and the cars have become so complicated that customer cars are no longer a real possibility.

Maybe it's time to drastically reduce the complexity of prototype machinery, back to a more GT-ish level.

I am not quite sure how to do it, but maybe going back to a fairly high number of cars produced before homologation like in the 70s would help. Add a price cap at - say twice that of LMP2 -,manufacturers would be forced to built cheaper and simpler cars and privateers would actually get access to competitive equipment.

*The final years of IMSA GTP and Gr.C being the notable exception.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I appreciate some will say a 'best of the rest' prize is better than nothing - particularly if it helps get the sponsors in......

Isn't that what LMP2 is for?

[littleman]

LMP1 is, in essence, the manufacturer class. LMP2 is the privateer class. Toyota have shown that a manufacturer petrol programme can compete with diesel so I guess the much maligned regs have always been pretty well constructed.

I think its now obvious a privateer LMP1 effort, diesel or petrol, simply can't compete with the cost and technology that only a works programme can provide.

Even if manufacturer's were to sell their cars to private teams, few, if any, could afford to run them and would probably need significant factory support anyway.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Isn't that what LMP2 is for?

Yes, I'd say so.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yes, I'd say so.

So here's the 10 trillion dollar question: how do you craft the rules as to attract several manufacturers to compete for a multi-year attack whilst keeping the P1 grid large and robust?

I suppose this is the same question that the sanctioning body always has.

[littleman]

I'm afraid the misty eyed dreams of a plucky Brit building a Le Mans winning car in his chicken shed have gone forever!

The days of Alain de Cadenet, Jean Rondeau etc, etc are sadly long gone.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by littleman

with diesel so I guess the much maligned regs have always been pretty well constructed.

Barely one day has gone since the test apparently already been forgotten that this is only the second year of post-2011 engine regulations and first season with the major modifications made to them during the winter.

[Spyderman]

@ deggis - You are of course, 100% correct. The "see I told you so" reaction from the pro diesel crowd however, whilst expected is unreasonable.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I'm against splitting classes by anything other than tech regs. I wouldn't mind a privateer trophy within P1, with a separate podium ceremony, but still in the same class so that a private car that has a really good day can still be eligible for the overall P1 win.

I think this has got to be right. No problem with a privateer trophy (like the Jim Clark Cup in F1 in the '80s), but please, no formal sub-division of the class. Frankly, I'm against GTE Pro and Am; we should have LMP1, LMP2 and GTE. That's it.

[aneesh99]

I do agree with the P2 privateer P1 factory sentiment, perhaps the grid in this situation could be boosted by the FIA/ACO pushing for more satellite teams in P1 running factory cars? For example, Rebellion running the TS030 or even Oreca taking a TS030 of their own. Not sure how viable that is considering the costs involved with a factory P1 machine... Would be nice though, the 2011 Rebellion livery on the Toyota!

[BSchneiderFan]

I do wonder how manufacturers would react if there were a very modest homologation requirement - say, 10 or 15 cars - would they think it was worthwhile to farm out cars to customers, or would they just leave prototype racing and go somewhere else?

[Gingers4Justice]

I don't understand why this issue has come about - maybe years of little manufacturer involvement in the 2000s has meant we've forgotten what it's like?

The fact of the matter is, motor racing is expensive these days, especially at the top levels like in LMP racing. When manufacturers come along they'll be competing for victories - they've put the money in, and money talks. They'll only come along if their money can talk, and unless you have manufacturers, there isn't any money in the sport full stop.

It's been like this for decades now but I don't see an extinction of privateer teams. Privateers will always come to Le Mans whether they have a chance of winning or not, and for many teams finishing will always be the victory. And if LMP1 is really that bad...there's always LMP2.

In the 1980s, we had manufacturers who had the money to build race-winning cars and the privateers and customers who had a shot of podium. There could only be two class winners. Yet ask anyone who was alive then, and they will tell you that along with the 1950s that was truely a golden era of sportscar racing.

Manufacturers come and go but pretty much no matter what the ACO does, privateers, garagists, customers and anoraks will always be here.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by littleman

I'm afraid the misty eyed dreams of a plucky Brit building a Le Mans winning car in his chicken shed have gone forever!

The days of Alain de Cadenet, Jean Rondeau etc, etc are sadly long gone.

I don't even necessarily want that - I'd be okay with Joests, Bruns, Fitzpatricks and Kremers...

Given the same equipment, privateers in the 80s were able give factories a run for their money - and from time to time even beat them, like Joest winning LM or Brun the WSC.

[Koenigsegg]

It was only a test session. Testing doesn't mean a lot. Pescarolo 03 was not even quicker than the fastest LMP2 cars. So maybe Pescarolo 03 should be in LMP2 with their car!! (sarcasm).

We don't know yet if Audi or Toyota will go much than the other at qualify and in the race.

Let's wait 1,5 week and then we'll know.

[Gingers4Justice]

Can I just add that there should absolutely 100% be a privateer LMP1 class in the Predictions Competition. I'm glad about that

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by deggis

Barely one day has gone since the test apparently already been forgotten that this is only the second year of post-2011 engine regulations and first season with the major modifications made to them during the winter.

That. Plus TS030 may actually have superior aero and/or importantly the Hybrid system!

That being said, the competitive level of private petrol cars seems to have deteriorated somewhat (compared to the diesels) after the engine rules moved to 3.4L. Apart from the Toyota engines, there doesn't seem to be single new engine developed for 3.4 P1 rather than 3.4 P2, spare the still-born AMR-One engine. And those uprated 3.4 ex-P2 engines seem to barely outperform those new production-block P2 engines. Look at the Oak P1 and P2 cars, you'll see what I mean.

Unfortunately it's not likely anyone will bring a new engine for privateers until 2014.

PS: as for the 'LMP1 Privateer class' isn't that's what LMP2 is for?