Legrand Formula A and B

[Big Block F]

How many Legrand Formula A and B cars are left in existence.

I know of one formula B, with TC ford and I have heard of a factory car with Alfa TC.

[allenbrown]

A very good question. I know of two or three Formula A LeGrand Mk7s but I've been struggling to find any more. See http://www.oldracingcars.com/f5000/legrand/mk7.htm

There should also be lots of Mk3 FBs around somewhere.

Allen

[jjordan]

used to work on a formula A Legrand here in Kansas City which was owned by a TWA pilot named Gene Forstefell. He latter got a Formula B LeGrand in which he installed a Mazda Rotary. What a screamer!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by jjordan

used to work on a formula A Legrand here in Kansas City which was owned by a TWA pilot named Gene Forstefell. He latter got a Formula B LeGrand in which he installed a Mazda Rotary. What a screamer!

Do you remember anything about that car? Gene Forsthofel raced a LeGrand Mk 7 at Mid-America Raceway and Olathe Airfield in 1970 and then advertised a "F/A LeGrand Wedge" in Autoweek on 3 Apr 1971 but I don't know anything more than that. It's one of my "mystery cars".

The FB he had later would be the Mk 14 he raced at Monterrey in 1971 with a Ford engine and then with a Mazda engine at Lake Garnett and Mid-America Raceway in 1972. In 1971 he'd also driven something called a "Leonizer" at Mexico City, a week after the Monterrey event.

Any of this ring any bells?

Allen

[Big Block F]

I have located, chassis No. 1. It is MK3B built April 1965. It has the Alfa Romeo twin cam. Would this be the actual factory car?

[allenbrown]

Quite possibly, although the first Mk 3 is said to have gone to Fred Hummell. Does it actually have a chassis plate identifying it as chassis No 1? I have never seen a LeGrand chassis plate and wasn't sure if the cars carried them.

Have you seen this page?

Allen

[Big Block F]

Allen,

Thanks for the info.

Yes, it does have a chassis plate and I have seen it first hand.

Definately No. 1, manufactured 4/65. I believe the only factory Alfa powered car and most likely the car that took Earl Jones to success in the SCCA run offs at Dayton in November of 1965.

Would appreciate any confirmation or correction to the above from anyone that may know more.

tks

[Big Block F]

Allen,

If you like, I can send you a picture of the chassis plate?

[allenbrown]

Would like that very much. allen@oldracingcars.com

Thanks

[allenbrown]

I checked my sources. It was an article in Autoweek 15 Feb 1969 p10 that said the first Mk 3 went to Fred Hummell. It implies the second went to Karl Knapp and the third as a FB for Bruce Eglington and later for Earl Jones. So Jones' Run-Offs car looks like it was chassis 3.

Bruce might be able to remember more: http://www.bruceeglinton.com/

Allen

[Davhut]

Do you remember anything about that car? Gene Forsthofel raced a LeGrand Mk 7 at Mid-America Raceway and Olathe Airfield in 1970 and then advertised a "F/A LeGrand Wedge" in Autoweek

Another opportunity for my old friend JJordan and me to interact. I wrote an article with photos for Autoweek, it ran under my by-line sometime (memory way hazy on the date) in 1972 give or take a year, on Gene Forstefel and his Mazda engined LeGrand as it was built up in mid-town Kansas City. The car was dark red, a wedge shape with front radiator. It was classed Formula A (predecessor to F5000) and while it made a hell of a shriek around the course, it was slower than drying paint.
I honestly can't recall, but I think this car had a monocoque tub and all the rear members had to be fabricated from tubing to hold the weird rotary. If LeGrand didn't make small tubs in those days then I'm mistaken and it was an older tube framed FB.
If I can find the pictures I'll post.

[Davhut]

OK, now that I've figured how to spell the man's name correctly, ( Gene Forsthofel ) research is somewhat easier. The chassis might have been a Mk 14 FB (and was if that was a wedge monocoque).

As another aside, both the factory LeGrand FB cars which competed against Gus Hutchison in 1967/8 were powered by TwinCam Alfas. More to follow...

[Davhut]

Further research has indicated that the Forsthofel LeGrand Mazda FA(5000) was indeed the monocoque tub FB version.

I don't know how to include this without attribution, so if that means more "red points," so be it.....

The ’72 Mk14 was the most radical and advanced car LeGrand was to build. A replacement for the aging Mk6 FB car, the Mk14 featured a completely new chassis and had the potential to move LeGrand Racecars from the ranks of club racer to the professionals. The chassis was fully monocoque, the only LeGrand to use this construction. The chassis was beautifully made, was reasonably light and very stiff, able to get the power to the wheels. Front and rear wings were now standard fare in 1972. Only 2 examples of Mk14 cars were reported to have been built.

from:
http://sports.racer.net/chassis/legrand/history.htm

[jjordan]

Have been threatening to go through my logbooks in the basement for sometime now, maybe this and a good rainy weekend will get me moving.
The Mk 7 was really pretty basic and I am sure that it was sold with the same bodywork that it came with. Where the term "wedge" came from is totally unknown as it was well built but hardly aero. Sort of like the Lola 140's of that era. The FB with the Mazda however had a red/scarlet body that looked to be locally fabricated and definately had a wedge look to it, the engine was soooo loud that it was hard to notice much else about the car.
Forsthofel drove the FA in all the usual Midwest venues: Ponca City, Lake Afton, the airport races at Olathe, Hutchison, but anyone around here always considered Mid America Raceway in Wentzville as our "home" track.

[Davhut]

I have photos of that Mk14 and detailed engine installation shots which I'll post before too long, I hope.
JJ, you remember Smiley running MAR backwards when the testing got too routine? That was something to see in the Mk20 with FB slicks on the rear. Great old times.
What THE..........>?

[jjordan]

I do remember hearing about that. Can only imagine what that corner at the end of the straight was like backwards! Over the hump and down that long hill.....wow. But GS was nothing but brave, probably just another day at the office for him.

[Davhut]

Originally Posted by Davhut

OK, now that I've figured how to spell the man's name correctly, ( Gene Forsthofel ) research is somewhat easier. The chassis might have been a Mk 14 FB (and was if that was a wedge monocoque).

Here is a photo of that Formula A (the predecessor to F5000) LeGrand Mazda in the middle of turn 1 at Mid-America Raceways. Loud and bellowing car that would have gone 300mph if it went like it sounded.
Cool idea never panned out, even at club level.

[allenbrown]

Great picture David! That's is one of Formula 5000's greatest curiosities.

[Davhut]

It's like the hairpin at Mallory, Allen, but in the days one had to think about exposure, focus and development.
If I ever find the "build" pictures, I'll post them as well.
Thanks.

[Big Block F]

Hopefully to finally clarify the issue of Mk 3 B and Mk 3 C cars I have arrived at the following.
The Mk 3 was primarily manufactured in two models, namely the first being a Mk 3 C, this being for the 1965 SCCA Formula C rules (up to 1100 cc and minimum 750 lbs weight). The Mk 3 B was manufactured for 1965 SCCA Formula B rules (up to 1600 cc and minimum 850 lbs weight).
Individual model sequential chassis numbers were used for the Mk3 B which started at 001, the same for Mk3 C which also started at 001.
A chassis plate for any Mk 3 will also includes a "B" or "C" suffix and then the sequential chassis number.
The first two cars were manufactured as Formula C cars, the first Formula B was the Egglington/Jones car which was fitted with the Alfa Romeo 1600 cc Twin Cam.
During the life of the Mk 3s many improvements were made, mainly to chassis strengthening and rear suspension improvements. These improvements were never assigned to a chassis up date number or other identifier. Many early cars also had these and similar improvements made post factory.
Several Formula C cars, including I think the first two Formula C cars were converted to Formula B.
Unfortuantely, it would appear that Red Legrand did not see the importance of full and proper records of Chassis numbers and continual improvements. No doubt, there was no the vision of what would be desirable to the historic racers and collectors some 40 or more years later.
The main source of this information has come from one of the original designers who worked alongside Red Legrand.
I would certainly welcome any further input.

[allenbrown]

That makes a lot of sense. Being used the the European approach to model numbers, I originally thought the MK3B was a modified MK3 and that the MK3C was a futher modification following the MK3B. There is a similar confusion between the MK7 and MK7A - actually the same car.

There were three MK3s at the 1965 Run-Offs: Earl Jones won the FB/FC race in the FB Alfa TC car (which must be MK3B-001), Tommy Bunn finished well down in his FC and Karl Knapp retired his FC (apprantly MK3C-002).

[Big Block F]

Allen,

Yes, Earl Jones had Mk3 B 001, the Fred Hummel car being Mk3 C 001.

Looks like this part of the indentification has been cleared up.

The big question, HOW MANY AND WHICH ONES REMAIN ?

[allenbrown]

Autoweek 15 Feb 1969 p10 says 18 MK3s were built between 1965 and 1967. Not many in 1965 probably, with sales taking off for 1966 after the ARRC win.

[Big Block F]

Many of the later cars were sold as "rollers" or as kits.

Some may never have been completed. Some may have been used as parts for other more succesful cars and of course some may well have been completed and re-named with some other name.

I now how Mk3 B 001 in my possesion. The twin cam alfa Romeo car. This car is around 70% through its restoration.

I know of one other that was in Malaysia, I am trying to get further details now.

[Neptune]

A friend here in the USA sold his unassembled Mk3 w/ Alfa motor to Australia a few years back. I hated to see it go, but I had no garage space and plenty of other projects on which to spend the cash.

Roger