Why would you want Webber in your car?

[mp356a]

Seriously. I do not see the reason for the hype. From what I can tell he is a terrible team player. His only desire appears to be to crush his own teammate. Sure he plays nice with the engineers and the folks at the factory but only to get an edge over a teammate.
While I agree that beating one's teammate, in allegedly the same equipment is good, if one is doing it to the detriment of the team it is bad.
Although this technique has worked for Shuey, I doubt that many others can pull this off, Webber included.
Does he really think that he can build an entire team around just him?
Wouldn't it be better to have a team player in the car to develop it into a contender?
Of course I could be wrong....
Mike

[Teretonga]

I would want Webber in my car because he is essentially a team man, has real ability, perseverance, maintains good fitness and attitude and has good technical skills.
Of all the present emerging talent crop he is probably the most likely to be able to do a 'Schumacher', that is, take a team by the scruff of the neck, pull them together and take the team forward in the midst of difficulty.

[Fondmetal]

I agree mate, webber is nothing yet, totally unproven, a few fast quali laps dont make u a schumacher! or indeed a f1 veteran or a superstar like the way some ppl carry on about him!

but how does he beat his team amtes? well he get the new development and improved parts inc engines..whic his team mates make do with the old spec stuff, pizzonia suffered like this too, and klein also by what i heard on tv last race..

[Jordi]

Webber seems on the way of being a good driver, but he's unproven in a top team. Some drivers excel in a top team, some falter...

[Mr V]

I think Webber has what it takes to be in a top team. Once he gets there (2005 maybe - definatly?) i hope he has a good team mate to see how good he is.

I'm sure he won't disappoint.

[HDTVKSS]

mp356a, interesting. although have you taken a second to look at Webber outside F1? i dont think youl find he was given preferential treatment in Merc, F Ford or anywhere else really.

The guy can drive. and damn well 2. wether he teams up with Ralf, JV or whoever next year he will make a great account of himself.

Why does he get the new improvements at Jag? cause hes the best to use them. I know that id give my best parts to my lead driver. if hes not that good, why would Jag seem to be so keen to keep him? surley if hes average theres other drivers out there that have the skills to replace him, why doesnt jag jsut release him?

You guys seem to rate Fisi and Button pretty highly. Now, when all 3 where in a team togeather i seem to remember that Webber used to give both of them a hiding in testing on accasion.

[Wrex]

Funny to notice the best his critics can come up with is his fans cant 'prove' he is good.

While I agree he is unproven in a top team (pretty hard to do being as he has'nt been in a top team) he has done plenty to impress so far.

There is a huge difference between potential and reality though, and its also possible Mark could become yet another of those we speak of "I cant believe thats all he could do?".

As a Webber fan, I liked it better when nobody was talking about him. I perfer he sneak up without anyone noticing than this hype (and therefor the anti like this thread is intended).

But critics, please get it out now, I would love to save your comments for a later date. I still get a chuckle over the Pizzonia/Webber thread from Feb last year.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Fondmetal
but how does he beat his team amtes? well he get the new development and improved parts inc engines..whic his team mates make do with the old spec stuff, pizzonia suffered like this too, and klein also by what i heard on tv last race..

I love this BS the most. On average, Mark is about 1.4 seconds faster than his team mates. If Jag were making those sorts of leaps and bounds constantly, why are they not challenging Ferrari?

No doubt the car is setup in his favor, and anything that can only be for one car goes on his. Here is a question for you - WHY????????????????????????????????

[Adam43]

How can anyone judge Mark Webber to these extremes?

I agree that it is impossible to tell if he is the next messiah. However there is little if no evidence to suggest he is only an also ran. He has done nothing to suggest he is useless, which I think is the point. I'm not on the bandwagon of he's the greatest ever, but it strike me that what we have here is:

Against: His fans can't 'prove' he is good.
For: His detractors can't 'prove' he is bad.

I'd chose him in my team (of the drivers who are remotely available). Althoguh I accept he's not a 100% certainty, but then he is more of a certainty than some.

[Dixie Flatline]

It's clear that Jaguar much prefer Webber to Klien. David Pitchforth frankly admitted they made a mistake in giving a race drive to Klien, but Red Bull wouldn't agree to Klien getting a season of testing under his belt.

At times, Klien has looked really good, ie. challenging Kimi and overtaking the Finn a few races back, but he's also made some rookie mistakes (not that I could do better or anything, just making an observation!).

These days, drivers are meant to be PR spokespersons for their teams and their sponsors. Although I'm not a fan of Webber, he does know how to give a good soundbite, which will impress sponsors. He has shown flashes of good driving ability in lesser cars, has some good pedigree driving Mercedes sportscars.

You could do a lot worse, I think.

[1200Datto27]

Heres a choice, Webber or Alonso? Which would you take?

[Adam43]

Well this will take the thread down another route, but...

I have a two car team, can I have both

If I had to chose, I'd have Alonso.

[HDTVKSS]

Webber. Alonso is damn fast, but i think Webber has the ability to pull a team togeather and drag it higher. and pace for pace i dont think that Webber is any slower.

in a perfect world id have both. then again in a perfect world id be doing this and not speculating on it.

[1200Datto27]

For some reason I typed Alsonso, But I was thinking Massa, who, a few years ago was being hyped in the same way as Webber. So I'll try it again!

[Rick]

"Why would you want Webber In your car?"

Better ask Frank that - not that he'd know as much as the experts on here!!

[Kirk]

I agree the verdict is still out but if he's as good a driver as his ego is large, he could be a star in F1.

[lookleft]

One of the main reasons I would want him in a car is that he is the last of the "young guns" to actually have gone through some kind of reasonable career transition to get to this point. Massa, Alonso, Kimi, Button and Sato (to an extent) are all good if not great drivers but IMHO they all took too many shortcuts to get to F1 and are not yet the full deal. I know there are many people who subscribe to the "if you are good enough you are old enough" theory but I think that history reflects poorly on this attitude. Sure, there will be cases where a great driver will succeed but is that because they were rushed or in spite of the fact? Examples:

Button is only now grown to a clear team leader - would a year or two spent wisely early on have resulted in him being able to dominate a team earlier? This is his 5th year in F1..
Kimi is clearly struggling being in a "nose to the wheel" situation. Life teaches you that sometimes things go against you - not point pouting about it just do YOUR job the best you can.
Alonso continues to impress but has dropped the ball a few times under pressure from Trulli.
Massa had to go back to testing - jury is still out.
Sato had to go back to testing - clearly has the "ability" at this level, he did not "re-learn" that last year, he refined it.
Klein - team now openly states he was not ready. Has pace but what damage has been done to career?

While at 27 I hardly classify Webber as young I feel he has spent his time wisely and is now stating to see the fruit of his labors, he has 5 more years left in him to bag a WC. He may well end up being a flop (I seriously doubt it) but at least he has put himself in place for a top drive after only 3 years in the main game. Point being, the grounding provided by banging out the test miles, understanding the "business" side of racing and cutting your teeth in lower categories are exactly what a driver needs to develop into a team leader. At F1 level the game is to get the absolute maximum out of YOUR car, YOUR engineer, YOUR mechanics and YOURSELF. If you have the ability and do these things consistently you WILL become the de-facto team leader and you WILL get the "fast bits" - teams are there to win, do you seriously think they are concerned with discriminating against the "weaker" driver?

Any illusion that a top driver should be interested in the goings on on the other side of the pits is misplaced. Look back at the WC over the last 10 years - mostly "nice" enough guys but they were hardly "team players"..

M Schumacher - we all know the situation there.
M Hakkinen - clearly the team leader. DC reduced to a bit player
J Villeneuve - blew away "the next Michael" in HH-F.
D Hill - Interesting case (admitted bias as I am not a huge DH fan) - close run with new team mate (JV) who established himself as the "team leader" before years end.

On a closing note .. think of the "seasoned" drivers who would love to be in a position to be in line at Renault, Williams, Toyota and Jaguar (I suspect even Ferrari have entertained the idea) and add the "young guns" who have ended up stuck in the "mid tier" (Heidfeld, Fisichella) and then consider the differences that we, the viewing public, get to see. IMHO Webber is just so much more intense than any other driver outside of M.Schumacher - that is why you want him in your car.

[Andre the Giant]

Webbo = vastly overated.
Journeyman fodder.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by 1200Datto27
Heres a choice, Webber or Alonso? Which would you take?

Weeelll, not to get all technical and statistical but you can easily compare them via the great Alex Yoong and in the same team (Minardi).

Soooo, if you do the math, you will find that both Alonso and Webber were literally the same average quicker than Yoong. Also consider that Alonso had been in the car all year and Yoong joined mid-season yet when Webber drove the Minardi, Yoong had driven about 7 or 8 races.

That means that, AT WORST, Webber is the qual of Alonso but is possible a little better too. Lets face it, both were very impressive with their efforts at Minardi, their full-time testing roles and since. In any case, both have earned the right to a good drive. Alonso has it - Webber will get it next year.

Personally, I'd take either of them.

[deeks6]

BTW, really good post, lookleft...summed up perfectly. Those that do the hard yards and EARN the spot tend to do very well. There are many other examples to support your case:

- Phil Hill
- Dan Gurney could have (if he didnt leave Brabham)
- Jack Brabham
- Jochen Rindt
- Mario Andretti
- Nigel Mansell
- Alan Jones

[RWC]

Lookleft,well said!Some good points there

unlike some who make obviously biased stupid statments


The only things we know for sure are:

Webber was NOT the fastest in all other classes he contested.When he got to f1 he suddenly went really well-he seems to suit f1 very well

He is a real DRIVER,taking the car by the scruff of the neck and pushing it hard just like shumacher and other top drivers do.Unlike montoya he can do optimum car setup as well

He's VERY reliable.He can drive an edgey car extremely well-again just like shuey

One thing we can't be sure of is-just how fast is he?
I'm with other posters who said they want to see him with a proven fast team mate.Then we will know!

[Tiptop]

Webber has the ability to pull a team together ? what's the evidence then for this ? Jag is still complete ****e!

[Super Tourer]

I don't think we know how good or bad he is, he hasn't really been put to the test yet.

It appears he has many of the ingredients; good approach to the team, fitness and a Schumacher like work ethic. In terms of outright speed, once again the current qualifying format masks many performances, you never quite know how much fuel is in the car and what tyres the car is on, etc.

A lot will also depend how good he is under pressure.

At the moment I can't see he is under any, when you move up to a top team, you are expected to be challenging for pole every race and getting on the podium every race and then they will be expecting you to start winning races.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that Mark can't run at the front in F1, but until he sits in a front running car I guess we will never know, which is always the team team bosses dilemma.

[Attila]

I really think that Webber can do a "Schumacher" and build the team arround him. However, I believe that Schumacher or Alonso has more natural speed than Webber. On the other hand, Webber makes up for the "lack" of natural speed, but working hard, testing a lot, understanding his car and the technology and respecting his team. I am sure that he can be WDC in a good car, but in my opinion he is not on the same level as TGF. Sorry Webber fans... I still rate him highly, because he is one of the two hardest working drivers (TGF and him) Cheers,

[Tiptop]

When Schumacher built the team around him at Ferrari he managed to get the best team from Benetton to join him... ie Ross Brawn,Rory Bryne etc etc. How is Webber going to manage to do the same when the Jaguar personel are a complete joke!