F1 V's LMP

[wolfhound]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this but my only other option was the F1 thread.

I have been comparing F1 to LMP in lots of ways recently and I feel that LMP is currently the better one, however F1 has that massive TV following that means that more people are aware of it.

Without getting into whether fans favour the WEC over F1 here are some comparisons. I do't know if anybody has done any serious comparisons before.
To put some raw figures on it in terms entry. ( I have not included the GT classes)
F1 currently has 18 (or 20 if Marussia come back)
LMP1&2 has 21.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117608

There are 9 or 10 different chassis manufacturers in F1
while in LMP there are 12

F1 has 4 different engine manufacturers, LMP has 7.

The WEC wins with much greater technical variety and freedom.

In terms of driving talent it is very difficult to compare but I suspect there is not a lot of difference in driving ability between the two series. The most recent comparisons can be made by comparing how Mark Webber and Andre Lotterer got on in the two series. It will be intersting to see how Nico Hulkenberg gets on later inthe year.

The WEC as series appears to be growing where as F1 looks to be going downhill even if there are more races.
I would like to see how the average race attendances compare as I suspect they would be a lot closer than some might think as there a lot of F1 races with poor crowds.

The WEC appears to be a lot more stable in terms of governance as F1 is currently a mess on this front.

Currently is the first time in 25 years that F1 and sportscar racing can be seriously compared at similar levels. The last was when Group C was at its best in the late 80's.

It will be interesting to see how the two series develop over the next few years.

[ger80]

Please let them all follow F1 so we can get into the WEC paddock and see the cars - otherwise it will end up like F1 paddock

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by ger80

Please let them all follow F1 so we can get into the WEC paddock and see the cars - otherwise it will end up like F1 paddock

There is no such a thing as 'Paddock access' in F1. Unless you are somebody or are willing to spend 10k £ just to see them.

[TF110]

Think that has to do with the guy(s) running the f1 'show'. The F1 vs LMP1 right now is lmp1 being the winner imo. More Auto Manufacturers in lmp1 than f1 is a telling sign also. There was a technical meeting for the f1 makes, and lets just say there were threats of quitting over going back to V8 engines. Well in lmp1 you can use whatever engine cylinder count you want. Open formula vs 1 formula... I think more teams will join soon.

[Beryl]

LMP(1) and F1 are disparate categories of motorsport, but if you need to compare: F1 is faster, F1 has better drivers, F1 has far more viewers and far more people care about it. F1 is the big money maker in European motorsport, it creates chatter, it puts more butts in seats (despite high ticket prices), it puts eyeballs behind screens. Which is "better" is a matter of opinion, but F1 is far more prominent and sits at the front of the table, if you're trying to make that comparison.

LMP1 has slightly better fuel efficiency.

[crooky]

I think F1 is a better sport with it's close racing and the short sprint race format complimenting this. But I think if you're a car fan who's interested in the bits underneath the bonnet then the WEC will generally win you over in the end.

There's just so much variety and technical interest in the WEC that just to talk about the cars themselves is really interesting as of course we do in this forum.

Whereas in F1 the only real interest for me on a technical level next year is how well the new Honda will perform and will Mercedes in regards to engine performance be caught in any way. More of the interest in F1 I'd say is about the drivers and how they compare to their teammates.

[tux]

Apples and Oranges isn't it?

[wolfhound]

One major difference from car manufacrurers point of view is the battle in the WEC is between car marques (Audi v's Toyota v's Porsche) where as F1 is primarily between drivers Hamilton v's Rosberg etc.

I do think that the top level LMP drivers would be capable of winning GPs in the right cars. Some of them could even become world champion but at the moment I don't see a Hamilton or Alonso in the WEC.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I do think that the top level LMP drivers would be capable of winning GPs in the right cars. Some of them could even become world champion but at the moment I don't see a Hamilton or Alonso in the WEC.

I don't know about you, but for me the top drivers in LMP1 at the moment are Jani, Davidson, Nakajima, Buemi, Lotterer and Duval.

Davidson, Buemi and Nakajima had their time in F1, and while competent to various degrees (Buemi was very good and unfairly canned, Nakajima showed a lot less), they didn't look like potential champions. Lotterer and Duval have been racing single seaters in FN/SF for nearly a decade and whilst they are top drivers there, F1 is whole other level (look at Nakajima, or, for that matter, see Zanardi and Bourdais). Jani didn't set the world alight in GP2 and Red Bull passed on him after he spent a year testing for them at Toro Rosso.

Though there is an unfair element of specialization with F1 drivers, let's be honest, the top LMP1 drivers wouldn't be top F1 drivers.

[miatanut]

I was an F1 fan for about 40 years. I also watched endurance racing, but I was primarily an F1 fan.

Increasingly F1 went spec, to the point of regulating C of G height of the engine.

F1 is now made in Bernie's image. It is all about the "show." If they can get the top four cars to finish within four seconds of each other and have four different makes in the top four, that would be achieving the holy grail.

Oh, wait, I just described the finish of Bathurst 12H today, except there were V6's, V8's, V10's in the field, some cars were better in the straight portions, others were better in the curvy bits, cars could slipstream each other, cars could pass, and there were seven different makes in the top seven. After 12 hours, not less than two hours!

Sportscar racing has achieved Bernie's ideal better than Bernie ever will, and done it with cars that have different engine configurations, different performance envelopes, and put on a much better "show" than any F1 race of the last 20 years.

For me, Le Mans is second best to Bathurst, and at Le Mans, the GT races are usually a lot better than the proto races, but both are far more appealing than F1. F1 has lots of money and a very successful promotor, but if you focus strictly on the quality of the on-track product, it has a lot to learn from sportscar racing.

[GT6]

Well as people on here will already know i follow both but prefer sporscar racing, i do feel that with three drivers per car in WEC compared to 1 in F1 comparing drivers is difficult, however each type of racing demands it's own specialist type of driver but for Le mans well over 160 drivers will be racing rather than 18 in a F1 race. The skills are very different.
The major car manufacturers are all voting with their feet at the moment and ignoring the rumours that always float about WEC appears more likely to attract further entries than F1.
Things will swing back i am sure but even the hardest core F1 fan will have to admit WEC is gaining ground on F1 and unless things change soon the TV money that is supporting the whole F1 gravy train may start to slip away

[JacobP]

For years, LMP1 was a two horse race between Audi and Peugeot, with Audi usually having upper hand. While LMP1 racing of that time was good, it would be a stretch to assert that it was better or more competitive than F1 of that time. But things have changed, and right now with four factory teams, LMP1 suddenly got some decent bragging rights against F1, which in the current season also has four distinct engine manufacturers, and as usual at most four teams that are expected to stay at the front, with two others fighting for the "best of rest" battle.

Anyways, I have been watching F1 for years, and LMP1 only for 24 hours of Le Mans. Now that there are more factory teams joining LMP1, I'll watch other WEC races too out of curiocity. However, it's far fetched to say that LMP1 racing will now definitely dominate F1. Come on, the season hasn't even started yet. Give it some time to see what happens. That new Nissan could simply be another "delta wing" of the motorsport (ie. having no real impact besides pretty looks) or it could be a game changer.

One important difference between these two is that LMP1 will always remain some kind of geek-oriented niche sport relative to F1. I am sorry, but the truth is that it's very hard to get the masses to care about a six hour long race where much of the outcome is decided by complicated strategies and at most one definitive overtake (or crash). All that dancing that the drivers and crews do to execute the definitive overtake of the race "by strategy setup" is like watching a six hour football match where at most someone scores a goal. Such sport has a right to exist, but you have to admit that the appeal will always be limited.

Moreover, LMP1 has usually been driven by manufacturer competition. When people talk about great prototype battles, they talk about cars, like Audi vs Peugeot. But F1 is completely different animal, because despite its tech sophistication, the focus of fans is always on the specific drivers. F1's best battles have been historically between individuals (even though cars and teams played a role). I think most fans and teams will agree that the number one goal is to win the driver championship title, while the constructor title plays a secondary role.

I do enjoy more visiting the WEC/TUSCC racing in person. The tickets are cheaper, crowds are smaller, and you see 6-9 hours of racing in a day. Enough to be sick of it for weeks.

[pablocomics]

Do you mean the old F1 or the new imitation to F1? Current one is close to the collapse, they will be very lucky if the year ends with more than 14 cars on the grid. Numbers of F1 are stil far, far away from any other motorsport competition, but for how long? Sometimes that's a path of no return, remember Champ-car.

The current F1 is close to a Spec car, unnactractive for the constructors and is starting to loose millions of spectators because the current sporting regulations are nothing but a big fake. Renault is leaving the F1 slowly and Nissan (the ohter half of the group) is embracing the WEC. Honda got back to F1, but for how long? The latest attems was short and uncompetitive. ...and the rumours of VAG are nothing but a joke.

In the other side you have a competition with barely no regulations and no limits (like the old F1). At this moment LMP1 are technologicaly more advanced than F1 and that's a a fact. F1 waste millions on avoid the stupid technical regulations instead advance in technology (like that giant pennis-nose from last year)

But endurance is not going to have big numbers if they don't do some short races like IMSA does. I still remember the 500Km of Jarama, a 6 hour race is too long for TV.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

There is no such a thing as 'Paddock access' in F1. Unless you are somebody or are willing to spend 10k £ just to see them.

Yes, and if all the F1 fans come to WEC, WEC might end up the same.
So let them go to F1

[GT6]

WEC will never be able to compete for the big TV money from the main channels due to the length of the races, however the rise of specialist motor racing channels and the fact that manufacturer support seems to be slipping towards the WEC will adjust the balance again, F1 will not collapse and disappear but it will have to accept that it is no longer the only game out there

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Numbers of F1 are stil far, far away from any other motorsport competition, but for how long?

Like the LMP1 grid is bigger. Without that grid filler meat in form of the LMP2 and others, LMP1 on its own would have been long dead.

The current F1 is close to a Spec car

utter nonsense cliche.

unnactractive for the constructors and is starting to loose millions of spectators because the current sporting regulations are nothing but a big fake.

Utter nonsense again. The only and primary reason for F1's falling popularity was the horrible 2013 season, where after mid-season every team walked away from their in-season car development and concentrated on a new car, allowing Red Bull to win, what 11 or 13 races in a row, all by Vettel. The popularity and ratings will should bounce back up after a very interesting and successful 2014 season.

Renault is leaving the F1 slowly

Never heard of that..

Honda got back to F1, but for how long?

Certainly for pretty long, since they're just getting started.

In the other side you have a competition with barely no regulations and no limits (like the old F1).

Old F1 had plenty of regulations.

At this moment LMP1 are technologicaly more advanced than F1 and that's a a fact.

That's a "shocking" non-fact that hardly bothers anyone in the world of F1. F1's best battles of all time have been traditionally focused on driver competition.

[MyNameIsNigel]

As far as I am concerned, I still enjoy watching both. Trying to get the best out of both worlds I guess. This being said, after having had the chance to experience several F1 races live, including access to the paddock/VIP aera (that was in the mid 80's early 90's... time flies... and we had the chance to know somebody working in the business and willing to open doors... ), and having more recently discovered the great experience that LM provides, there is clearly one event that I am really willing to spend a week or so to attend, and that is in mid-June somewhere in a France.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Like the LMP1 grid is bigger. Without that grid filler meat in form of the LMP2 and others, LMP1 on its own would have been long dead.




utter nonsense cliche.



Utter nonsense again. The only and primary reason for F1's falling popularity was the horrible 2013 season, where after mid-season every team walked away from their in-season car development and concentrated on a new car, allowing Red Bull to win, what 11 or 13 races in a row, all by Vettel. The popularity and ratings will should bounce back up after a very interesting and successful 2014 season.



Never heard of that..



Certainly for pretty long, since they're just getting started.



Old F1 had plenty of regulations.



That's a "shocking" non-fact that hardly bothers anyone in the world of F1. F1's best battles of all time have been traditionally focused on driver competition.

Good to see you over here trolling for a bite Jacob.

[Knowlesy]

I like both.

Different categories.

Sportscars is definitely on an upswing compared to F1, but that fluctuates era by era anyways.

I must also say that I attended Le Mans last year and nothing comes close to the experience.

[Adam43]

F1 has arrogant fans who think their series is best because don't know anything about racing outside F1. Le Mans Sportscar fans have massive chips on their shoulder that mean they have to justify their series is better all the time.

However both are united as they both 'know' that it is better than NASCAR.

These are universal truths that are never deviated from

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Adam43

F1 has arrogant fans who think their series is best because don't know anything about racing outside F1. Le Mans Sportscar fans have massive chips on their shoulder that mean they have to justify their series is better all the time.

However both are united as they both 'know' that it is better than NASCAR.

These are universal truths that are never deviated from

Actually, the opposite is true. I can tell you from my experience. F1 fans don't have the urge to head over to WEC forums and make troll posts there, but I swear that every time there is an F1 article on Jalopnik.com, there is a swarm of WEC fans rushing to lay their **** on the forum, by constantly posting helpful "reminders" such as "F1 is spec racing" or "LMP1 is more technologically advanced". Or just check Casper's recent troll thread on F1 board here. F1 fans usually want F1 racing to remain F1 racing, and LMP1 racing to remain LMP1 racing, but LMP1 fans always want to teach others like all forms of racing should be like LMP1? Why? Surely that's not what made LMP1 so widely popular outside of tiny geek circles.

[crooky]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Actually, the opposite is true. I can tell you from my experience. F1 fans don't have the urge to head over to WEC forums and make troll posts there, but I swear that every time there is an F1 article on Jalopnik.com, there is a swarm of WEC fans rushing to lay their **** on the forum, by constantly posting helpful "reminders" such as "F1 is spec racing" or "LMP1 is more technologically advanced". F1 fans usually want F1 racing to remain F1 racing, and LMP1 racing to remain LMP1 racing, but LMP1 fans always want to teach others like all forms of racing should be like LMP1? Why? Surely that's not what made LMP1 so widely popular outside of geek circles.

It's because a lot of F1 fans are more interested in what Hamilton's dog had for breakfast than a different racing series.

But seriously I know where you're coming from it reminds me of going on tech sites. Reading about the latest Apple thingy and it's just Android and Windows phone users saying it's rubbish and you're a sheep if you buy Apple... I hope it never gets anywhere near that petty level.

[TRspitfirefan]

What is this "Formula 1" you speak of?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Actually, the opposite is true.

You'll find I was registering my disappointment at both.

I find it tedious and generally gets in the way of my enjoyment of all motorsport.

[miatanut]

The current F1 is close to a Spec car

Originally Posted by JacobP

utter nonsense cliche.

Have you looked at the F1 rulebook?

It's been quite while since I have, but I remember it regulates engine displacement, number of cylinders, "V" angle, bore spacing, engine length, engine minimum weight, and even engine C of G height!

That's just the engine section. The rules for the rest of the car is more of the same. The US Army would be proud to have written the spec for an F1 car, because very little of it is left to chance.

I think the WEC rules over-regulate the car too, and I'm amazed at what the Nissan bunch have come up with under those rules, but there is NO chance under the current F1 rules of somebody showing up with a car that turns a lot of the conventional thinking on its head.

But I'm a gearhead. The cars are the stars for me. F1 would rather build itself around driver celebrity, and there is no question that opens it to a wider audience.

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

What is this "Formula 1" you speak of?