DP's Fix

[gttouring]

What would be the fixes any one here would do to improve on the DP's? that is retaining the tube frame design of course and the 'cost saving measures.' A spec prototype wasn't a bad idea after mulling it over for months, it would be a class better suited as the 750's and leaving the 675's alone...

[pirenzo]

THe cost cutting measures. They are what makes the Dp's so bad. If we can't change them, there's no helping them. I'm not advocating no cost cutting, but what they've done in the way of production blocks, and one make uprights, and wings, .............
There's way too much restriction, it's like a kit car. There's no real DIY at all

[danhx]

Indeed, the whole DP idea is beyond help IMO...I only like NASCAR when it's not disguised as a prototype.

[Tim Northcutt]

There's a difference between "cost cutting" and "cost-effective"

A fast race car can be built without breaking the bank of Monte Carlo...

I object to intentionally dumbing down the rules to make everyone run about the same speed and trying to sell it as "Racing"

This same way of thinking by the same group of people led to NASCAR using common templates (at least 18 of 30 some-odd dimensions) with cosmetic grill openings and "badging" on this year's cars...

I believe that if a Chevy Monte Carlo is a "brick on wheels," then GM needs to go back to the drawing board..or if Ford has too much downforce, then Ford better figure out "A Better Idea"...

(It is why I don't watch NASCAR unless I really need a racing fix...)

[H16]

From the comments made so far by some of the G/A group, I get the feeling that not much, if anything, will be done. Perhaps 50 more lbs of ballast to the GTS cars might be on the cards.

I have seen Roger E's FAQ on the G/A site as well as articles on the net and in mags, and I am under the impression they find nothing whatsoever wrong with it.

One G/A official was quoted as saying "soon you'll see us having so slow these cars down", when confronted with the speed issue in the last issue of RACER. When you have to constantely dumb down the other classes and/or eliminate them to have the DP barely edge a GT car, this is not the best of attitudes that you can present to fans or teams.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, but I really doubt that anything will be done anytime soon to change the DP formula.

[RacingManiac]

the most simple fix imo is to give them more power...if you can't change the concept too much, at least make them faster...

[gttouring]

Similar to F5000, this can be done- over power the cars. or simply cut the green house in half and make them unique, not the 'classic' 2 seater prototypes, but a fighter jet look one sided cockpit, and big pushrod v8 and turbo v6's radiators anywhere, save money sure- and the racing comes back, any thoughts.

[ZXKawboy]

Let'em run whatever horsepower they can bring to a fight, and put the radiators where-ever makes the best sense.

the one-make uprights and wings have to go, and let'em have endplates on the wings, as well.

Underbody diffusers...how 'bout that for an idea? Nothing wrong with letting them have a *little* bit of downforce...


I dunno...just a few ideas for a revival of a maybe-decent concept.

[veeten]

If you think purists are having an excrutiating time with this, just imagine how lost non-enthusiasts are feeling.

Actually, the best way is to put on a Grand Am race either one week before or after the broadcast of an ALMS event, and then let the populace decide which series has better appeal. In some ways, it'll settle, once and for all, which series has the public's hearts, minds, and future ticket purchases.

[Chevyguy]

Bad idea. Don't settle it, and then they can still compete. Then we see the best of what they can do. GA's best right now is the DPs. (giggle)

On the other hand, if ALMS can finish off GA, Daytona is back in respectable hands. But then, the cars are too expensive. I'm willing to bet money I'll never have that it will end up costing as much to develop a DP, as it does an LMP. They aren't saving cash, they're just using cheaper cars. Does that make sense?

[pirenzo]

No. IMO what they need is spec diffusers, steel tube chassis, standard engine blocks, but unlike the current cars, everything else will be free as it were. Maybe road fuel would be good. This way, you have the main areas of cost cutting implemented, without the slow cars.

[Burd]

Originally posted by Chevyguy
On the other hand, if ALMS can finish off GA, Daytona is back in respectable hands. But then, the cars are too expensive. I'm willing to bet money I'll never have that it will end up costing as much to develop a DP, as it does an LMP. They aren't saving cash, they're just using cheaper cars. Does that make sense?

First of all, I strongly doubt that the ALMS will ever run at Daytona again in any form, regardless of what happens to the Grand-Am series. Many sportscar fans assume that the France family would suddenly welcome Panoz in with open arms if they can't keep the Rolex going, but I think that's just not going to happen. My guess is that if Grand-Am tanks, the Frances will work even harder to bring down the ALMS in any way possible.

Secondly, it is starting to appear that the reduction in costs represented by the DPs will actually be found mostly on the developmental and operational phases as opposed to the construction phase, contrary to what you suggest. Cole Scrogham, the President of the G&W team that's running the Picchio DP2, said during testing last week that the Grand-Am mandated components and the stock-based engine they are using in the car are so durable that he thinks it will end up being cheaper to run the Picchio for a whole season than a Porsche GT3 RS. It's anybody's guess as to whether that will actually turn out to be true, but if it does it will be very impressive.

[MaxSport]

Car and operating costs are about the same for DP and GT. Just ask team owners instead of speculating and putting out false information that fits your agenda.

A Ferrari 360 GT is 400k and a new 911GT3RS about 300k. If your driver puts one of these cars in the fence it will cost you more to fix it that a tube frame DP.

Hotel rooms,crew,transporters and other costs are the same. It is a false premise to suggest that DPs cost more than GTs and that Grand Am will in turn be a failure.

Cole knows what he is talking about and has quoted me numbers for a season in DPs that are similar to what others have quoted me for a year in GTs.

Daytona 24 "back" in respectable hands? It has always been run by the France family and I doubt that they will be finished off by anyone. Especially a neophyte like Don Panoz and the ALMS.

The LM Tournement,a strong FIA GT series,weak LMP fields (that really are due to high costs) and lack of leadership make it more likely that the ALMS will disappear first. Panoz doesn't have the money or willingness to prop up the ALMS anymore.
That is obvious by his actions and can be supported by facts.

Lets hope that Sebring will continue no matter what occurs with the ALMS. Maybe it becomes an LM Tournement event?

If Bernie buys CART I suggest that it will be the ALMS that is finished off. CART is a much bigger "enemy" of the ALMS than the G/A is.

Even if the DP class goes away, G/A will likely stay around as a GT series. The Frances aren't likely to be going anywhere either.

KM

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by MaxSport
If Bernie buys CART I suggest that it will be the ALMS that is finished off. CART is a much bigger "enemy" of the ALMS than the G/A is.

Even if the DP class goes away, G/A will likely stay around as a GT series. The Frances aren't likely to be going anywhere either.

I doubt that Bernie can fix in one fell swoop what ails CART, so they won't kill off ALMS. Of course, your assertion of The Death Of ALMS is predicated on your usual hostility towards the LMP classes, which I don't see going away regardless of the financial outlook. Guys who want to race, will race. And if they want cars that look like race cars first and foremost, prototypes will survive. It's been going on for 50 years now...

That said, your second sentence rings true to me. I think the management of ALMS figured that one out when the whole Miami debacle of last year happened. The evidence would be in the way the two camps portrayed the event - CART were all over the idea of more joint events, while the ALMS people were very cool to it. Of course, the failure to secure an European date in May, coupled with the Mexico cancellation, surely confirmed that. (I'm speculating on the first failure being influenced by Pook's foray into Europe to secure dates in lieu of Chicago and Rockingham; the second failure has been linked to CART by others, but I have no authoritative information.)

I also think you're right about Grand Am becoming all-GT (and I think you can eliminate the "if" statement); what do you think that means for the Grand Am Cup?

[Tim Northcutt]

News item in Indianapolis Star today...

CART is looking very favorably at Bernie & F-1 buying controlling shares of CART..looks like that will happen...

MaxSport makes some valid points, although I don't think ALMS will go away...their ties to the ACO will help them a lot...


On the DPs:

Horsepower will help, but you can't polish a Turd...

[danhx]

Panoz has just unveiled a new GT car and has said that he wants to continue building cars that can compete for overall victories. The series has manufacturer backing from Audi, Porsche and GM. Corvette has committed to the series through 2005 at the very least and rumors abound that Audi will come back in '04, or shortly thereafter. When was the last time a Grand-Am race had over 75,000 spectators?

My point is that i don't think Don Panoz is ready to leave his creation. You don't get to his aristocratic status by coming up with a promising idea, seeing reasonable success and then abandoning it. If he's running out of money, then why is still building new locations for Chateau Elan? They're not the sort of establishment built by someone who's running out of money. The future of sportscars is a little cloudy, but i think that the ALMS will feature in it to a much greater degree than Grand-Am.

[Burd]

I don't think anyone is saying Panoz himself is running out of money. Many are speculating that the ALMS is losing money, and that Panoz is no longer willing to prop it up with funds from his own pocket.

As to whether he's legitimately in it for the long haul is anybody's guess. He hasn't been around long enough in the grand scheme of things (the ALMS is still a baby remember) to know exactly how he will react when his series hits that first big downturn that is always a guarantee in the world of sportscar racing. I personally don't trust him too much simply because he didn't grow up with racing in his blood.

Here's a bit from an interview I read with him back when the ALMS first began that made me think at the time that the series wouldn't last 10 years...

PANOZ: I started chatting with (my son) and said, "You really need to start creating a racing heritage" -- as a guy who'd only been to four motor races in his life.

He said, "I really have my hands full with this new car, so why don't you do it?"

So let's do it.

"Where do you want to race?"

I did see a movie once called 'Le Mans' with Steve McQueen, so let's go for Le Mans.

So here we are, the rest is history.

So basically Panoz was a chemist who invented a nicotine patch, got rich, and started a sportscar series to help his kid sell cars. Oh, and he chose sportscars over any other form of racing simply because he once saw a Steve McQueen movie that he liked.

Hopefully Panoz has the racing backbone that everyone seems to now give him credit for, and if he doesn't, we'll have to hope that he's able to sell the ALMS organization to someone who definitely does. Paul Gentilozzi naturally springs to mind...

[danhx]

I think that his business savy is of more significance of his racing pedigree. He's not just a chemist, he's a businessman too. A good busniessman will not abandon an idea that could prove profitable if it doesn't see immediate, explosive sucess. Now if it looks totally doomed he might sell it off so that his name is less associated with the company's downfall, but i would hardly say that the ALMS is doomed.

[MaxSport]

"Death Of ALMS is predicated on your usual hostility towards the LMP classes, which I don't see going away regardless of the financial outlook. Guys who want to race, will race. And if they want cars that look like race cars first and foremost, prototypes will survive. It's been going on for 50 years now..."

Either you are too young to remember or simply don't know your sportscar racing history,Paul.

I don't hate prototypes. In fact it is just the opposite. However, I have seen them ruin the sport 3 times in my 46 years and think they have been the reason for sportscar racing to have to regroup and start over too often.

50 years of prototypes? Maybe at LeMans.

How about 1993 through 1998? Where was the prototype racing in Europe? BPR was doing fine until they let it become a series for GTP cars. It had one really glorious year -1997, but it was clear that it was already was doomed because the costs were over the top. If only they had said " Wait Ferrari- you are right. Build all of those customer F50 GTs and we will stop the madness" Ferrari F-50 vs McLaren BMW would have been outstanding and sustainable. About 1 million USD for a season that included LM. That didn't happen though and here we are today. Watching the might of VAG.

IMSA had prototypes and they were about as popular and quick as DP cars are now. The WSC years were pretty boring. (Although I liked the Ferrari 333sp)

The only place one found prototypes at an international level in the mid to late seventies was LM. The Group 5 DRM races in Germany were about the only hot thing in sportscar racing then.

Prior to that, in the early sixties, the FIA had a period where there was a GT championship,but not a prototype series. Only LeMans had a class that allowed those cars.

Check the record and see if I am wrong.

If supercars aren't allowed to morph into prototypes again I think that they can be the answer to giving stability to the sport while retaining excitment for the sport.

Seeing the 17 or 18 GT 500 class JGTC cars and a similar number in GT 300 that will be competing in this weekends race at the Aida Circuit shows that even in a bad economy GT racing is a more viable alternative. Does Panoz get 45,000 a race?
Don't tell me about Sebring. They could get half those people if they just had music playing.

When 5 LMP cars,4 LMP675, 7 GTS and 12 or 14 GT cars show up at Road Atlanta in June lets see how exciting that is.

G/A is building one a block at a time. I like most what they are doing. It is real instead of built on sand like the ALMS.

Instead of just thinking they can throw money at a series,use smoke and mirrors and say "build it and they will come" the G/A people know what they have to do to create something of substance. These people are the old IMSA.

Panoz isn't a fan. He just likes the attention. It is a ***** to have a net worth in the B's and no one knows who you are. He created and marketed the transdermal patch at a time when stock values were unrealistic and sometimes the creative accounting also helped those stock prices even higher.

Not only is Panoz net worth not nearly what is was, (look up Elan's stock price-it is about 5% of what it was when Panoz started the ALMS) it is clear he won't waste any more money just to please you-"The Fans".

Sorry if reality sucks, Paul.

[danhx]

Let's say that Grand Am is building on a good idea for a racing series. Who's gonna come watch it? They going to have to hire some marketing messiahs to build a fan base to build upon. They had a good thing when the Dayonta 24 Hours was an international draw, but in the face of waining international interest - although i will give it you that international interest is waining in most places, but it seems to a further degree in G/A - and only a trickle of fans they have to bring in a new group of fans that can sustain them while they attempt to build up. They certainly aren't appealing to the younger generations; most people under 20 like attractive, fast cars that are packed with technology. Many of the old guard have been run off by the switch to DPs. Where are they going to sell their product?

[veeten]

and that's the difference between a racing purist and a buisnessman.

A purist will talk a good game, whereas his counterpart will be lining up the sponsors and investors as best he can to save his own investment. And make a return for everyone, from the drivers to the corps that sponsor the series.

[veeten]

what makes me laugh is the fact that two of their bigest stalwarts, Dyson Racing and Doran/Lista Racing chose to forego the opening season of the DPs, and went with ALMS; Dyson with a pair of MG/Lolas, and Doran with his series-winning Dallara/Judd. The really funny part being that Doran is one of the chassis builders, which shows the level of confidence in the program if you're not willing to drive your own product.

[Burd]

I would agree with MaxSport when he asserts that the future of sportscar racing can most likely be found in the FIA-GT/JGTC format. Toyota is supposedly building a supercar that could fit in well with the Ferrari 550s, the Saleens, and the Corvettes, and Porsche has something in the works as well I believe. I'm starting to think it won't be long before the ultra-expensive prototypes are relegated strictly to Sebring and Le Mans.

[veeten]

and even that puts GA in a tight spot, as most of the rules changes run counter with the types and designs of GT/GTS/JGTC cars in contention. If only they had left the category alone...

[MaxSport]

The G/A meeting here in Indy may be in part to discuss whether the cars will be brought up to ACO GTS levels of performance or left as they are.

As I have said before,some teams would like the cars to have more hp and some prefer to see GTs have a chance to win overall.

The Grand Am GT rules are obviously about the same as FIA/ACO, but a bit more liberal concerning homologation requirements. They are more akin to those of JGTC and British GTs.

So you have 6 or 8 DPs that can continue to be made to run at ACO GT/FIA N-GT levels-and the same price point as a Ferrari 360 or Porsche GT3RS or they could raise the power and give the cars GTS type performance.

Since most don't have a problem with the British GTs just think of the G/A series as being the British GTs(Porsche, Ferrari 360 and Moslers) plus 6 to 10 DPs.

If they have less than 10 DPs I think both classes should have an equal shot at the overall win. 4 or 6 top class cars isn't much of a race.

This is the problem I have with the ALMS. In fact it is worse because at least there is no VAG juggernaut to overcome in G/A.

KM