Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

[Ubique]

Well I guess the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory. In several of the threads on here I've noticed that there seem to be a few people who believe that to be a good marshal you need to be happy flagging but is this the case and have these "good" marshals ever tried any of the other specialisations?

I ask this following a long season during which I have noticed a significant number of marshals who are unwilling to upgrade to experienced on the basis that they don't like flagging and resent being forced to do it. Does this make them bad incident marshals?

We all started marshalling to give something back to the sport we love and when numbers are low I'm pretty sure that we all accept the need to multi task but numbers are now improving so do we still need the requirement be a flaggie to upgrade? From my own perspective I'm an IO and a Specialist Marshal but absolutely hate flagging, it just bores me senseless and I get absolutely no enjoyment out of doing it. Now don't get me wrong I can, and have flagged when needed but it's not a role that would make me want to marshal.

Personally I think that flagging is a specialist task that takes time to become good at. I can even understand the logic of trainees having to learn flagging so that they can perform the duty in an emergency and so that they understand the flag role but can't the same reasoning be used to say that they should have an understanding of other specialist roles i.e pits/startline or assembly? But what I can't see is the need for someone who wants to go Track to Experienced track and stay on the incident stream of the grade to be forced to flag.

Thankfully people have started to see sense and reintroduced the flag grade but I feel it's been put back at the wrong level as now it's on a par with IO. In the old system you went Trainee - Course (Green) and then specialised as either Incident (Red) or Flag (Blue) and IO grade was denoted as either Red/Black (Incident stream IO) or Blue/Black (IO with flag grade). That system worked.

For me I'd like to see all trainees give each role a go so maybe to become a qualified marshal they could do 20 days Incident, 2 days Flag and 2 days Specialist (for trainee Specialists swap the days for Incident and Specialist above) that way they would be able to decide what role they wished to follow and if they don't want to ever flag again then they wouldn't have to.

OK so what are your views? Personally I worry that if we keep forcing people to do things that they don't enjoy we will start seeing them give up marshalling.

[Darren Holmes]

No, not wanting to flag does not make you a bad Marshal at all, I don't want to do pits, startline or assembly, in fact after I started flagging I no longer wanted to do incident either.

I agree the flag grade is at the wrong point in the grading system, it should be a choice after Track and there was a very robust thread about it at the time it came back in, a search might find it.

A good marshal is a good marshal regardless of the role they perform.

[juliet]

I'm glad you bought this up, I am a trainee I will have completed about 20 days by the end of this season and am starting to think about when I should try and upgrade next season. The thing at the moment that is putting me off is the flagging aspect. I have spent one day watching someone flag (this may have been the problem) and occasionally waving the green flag and i really didnt enjoy it.

Now as i mentioned it may be the fact i wasnt actually doing it i was just watching or it might have been that all hell was breaking loose on track and felt i would have been more help down there, but either way spending a few days flagging is something i know that i have to do at somepoint but something i am not looking forward to.

The other thing that puts me off is that quite often flagging is a fairly solitary position, one of the main draws of marshalling for me is the banter and the feeling of being part of the team.

So no i dont think it makes you a bad marshal but then i may have a biased view at the moment.

If there are any silverstone flaggies out there that think they can sway me, let me know!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Well I guess the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory.

It depends on whether you definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to flag when needed".

[fazza]

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

[The Flagman]

'A volunteer is worth ten pressed men' actual quote so not sexist. Believe it has its origins in naval crews centuries ago.

Folk forced to flag may well underperform. Its a specialist discipline that requires a high level of concentration. This can make it very tiring and on three day meetings I tend to crash 'sans alcohol' by 10.00pm Sad! The upside is the involvement, particularly on long distance races or Historics with greater speed differentials. It can be quite solitary and better for Billy No Mates as if you are concentrating you can't hold other conversations.

The contrast when I do ES (rarely) is that I sometimes haven't a clue who is where in the race but at the end of the day I'm far less tired. For ES a long distance race or historics may be dull and the likes of Caterhams running close together be much more appealing.

I quite understand people who don't get the flagging thing. Means I am rarely short of a spot on post and we tend not to have to queue for long to sign on!

A factor often overlooked is the difficulty of flagging with circuit provided flags. Most are lousy and make it much harder than it need be. Donington flags shoulld have a health warning as they can genuinely lead to strained muscles. Try some lightweight flags used by keen flaggies and you will be amazed.

I found flagging came with the arrival of middle age spread. When I couldn't do the 100m sprint with bottle I felt it safer to confine myself to post. Still doesn't stop you getting out with a broom at Cadwell and Silverstone oil slicks. Is it me or have we had a spectacularly oily 2011?

Truth is we are volunteers - only have to volunteer for what you want to do. Be good at that and there is no case to answer about whether or not one is a good marshal. We need ES volunteers and we need flag volunteers - well until they come up with workable chase cars and light systems.....

When your faculties really deteriorate you can become a Post Chief.

[skeee]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

I have to agree.
I don't like to neither but.............

when there's only two of you on post

So I agree but I see the other side.
I imagine the real 'problem' (if there is one) is that as volunteers we are much less likely to say "Stuff that!" (insert your own phrase) when there is only two of you on post. Of course you could always stick to popular meetings when you can be assured of sufficient numbers.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

i also agree with fazza...

i don't like flagging but i will do it if needed and do it happily
just don't force me to do it (MSA please note)
i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.

some one said it's a talent to flag, and i really couldn't agree more.
give me the yellow, green or red nooooo problem but give me a blue and i'll struggle.
as Mr Gordon Knight (a gentleman and flaggy i hold in high regard) once told me "no one has died because of a lack of a blue flag"

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

i also agree with fazza...

i don't like flagging but i will do it if needed and do it happily
just don't force me to do it (MSA please note)
i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.

some one said it's a talent to flag, and i really couldn't agree more.
give me the yellow, green or red nooooo problem but give me a blue and i'll struggle.
as Mr Gordon Knight (a gentleman and flaggy i hold in high regard) once told me "no one has died because of a lack of a blue flag"

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make Steve, none of us mind doing it when absolutely needed but alot of people don't like the idea of being forced to do it just to get an upgrade. Like I said I understand everyone needing to know the basics about flagging so that we can do the duties in those situations but once you have been taught the basics why force someone to do it anymore? Like I was once told multi tasking is being able to do more than one thing to an acceptable level, whereas specialising is doing just one thing but at a high level. In other words I'd prefer to be on post with a group of people who are able to specialise than a few people who are better described as "Jack of all trades master of none".

[hellblade]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

That pretty much sums it up it think,

I dont like flagging either at the moment, its not a highlight for me, but you should be willing to 'take one for the team' so to speak if there isnt a dedicated flaggy and your asked (ive done it before).

Trainee's have no choice but to flag a little but hey two days realy isnt that bad

Luke

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

It depends on whether you definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to flag when needed".

Not necesarily no. I mean if you went to sign on and were told you were running the pits or startline or assembly could you do it? And if not would that make you a bad marshal? No ofcourse it wouldn't so why should flagging be any different to any of the other specialisations? Being a Flaggie and being Incident require very different skill sets. I know a lot of very good Incident Marshals that can't flag to save their lives but by the same token I know a lot of excellent Flaggies who would admit themselves that they are a liability at Incident handling.

The point of my question is to see what we all think which is why there is no right or wrong answer but I do feel that as it is an issue that has been raised to me several times this season and having read some of the views on here needed wider discussion. Hopefully those that have a say in running marshalling will, to use an American expression "Wake up and smell the coffee" and realise that the rank and file of marshalling while happy to help do things they don't enjoy once in a while are getting fed up of being forced to do it to progress.

[Woolley]

Another vote for 'no it doesn't'. It's useful to be aware of what it entails, and conversely, if flagging it's useful to understand what the incident guys are doing but to me there's an analogy in rallying. Some drive, some co-drive, some can manage either but they're not the same roles or skill sets and you need all kinds to make the team.

You could ask the same question of 'not to want to be a Post Chief', because that's a job I don't want to do.

[Lord Summerisle]

if you replaced all the instances in the first post of the word flagging with the word incident - you would get my feelings.

I didnt enjoy incident - all ever wanted to do at a circuit was flag. thats where i get my enjoyment from. as soon as the grading system changed i put in for flag. Got my upgrade to track and thats where it seems i will stay.

Thats not to say when the need arises, i wont help - but i dont wanna sign up for a day stood watching the traffic go by waiting for someone to crash.

[Slipstick]

So does preferring to flag make you a bad marshal ?

I'm just starting out marshalling again but since I'm now old and fat I'm rapidly realising that I'm not really fit enough to go running through gravel traps carrying heavy extinguishers. I can (just about) manage it and as a trainee again I'm happy to try but I reckon I'd probably be more genuine use on the flags (and I have always enjoyed flagging). At least that might allow one other fitter better incident-trained marshal to do what s/he prefers.

I'd like to think that there's something useful for all of us to do but I'm seeing the point of the grading scheme as ensuring that we all are capable in a pinch of doing any of the important tasks. If it was up to me I'd also include at least a day or so in the other specialities. If you've never tried Pits/Startline or Assembly are you certain you wouldn't like it ?

Steve

[Red_08]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

If you've never tried Pits/Startline or Assembly are you certain you wouldn't like it ?

That's a very good point Steve. I suppose we all look at other areas of Marshalling and make a judgement on whether we fancy it or not, but until we've tried it out proper, we wouldn't really know for sure.

I specialise in an other area of Marshalling and have recently only managed a handful of days on the bank, so for me, I chose to do Track duties. If called upon to flag, I wouldn't hesitate though.

My view is that it doesn't make anyone a bad marshal by not wanting to flag. We are after all, volunteers, and if Joe Bloggs turns up for the day and their day is ultimately ruined by being "forced" to Flag then I don't think that is fair. We want to enjoy our day at the meeting, after all that's why we do it. But, if push came to shove and there was no-one else in the crew confident enough to do it, or those allocating duties told you there aren't enough flaggies, then step up to the plate.

Elliot.

[The Fat Clerk]

I'm the worlds worst Flag Marshal - I know it and everyone that's ever seen me do it knows it. I did it for 1 season (1987) just to go through the upgrading system. I take my hat off to those of you that do it and do it so well. My personal favouritte being John Baker @ Brands.

[numbersix]

I try to encourage marshals to do different things just for the experience. You never know, you just might like it! But pressing them is a different matter.

I think part of the problem is this notion of being forced to do something. As Brits we are particularly allergic to being told what to do and this sets up an active resistance movement. Encouragement - with incentives - will produce better results than compulsion with deterrents.

So, no, not wanting to flag in no way makes anyone a bad marshal. But does being versatile have advantages - yes!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ubique

I mean if you went to sign on and were told you were running the pits or startline or assembly could you do it? And if not would that make you a bad marshal?

It depends on whether your definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to run pits or startline or assembly when needed".

[johngee]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I'm the worlds worst Flag Marshal - I know it and everyone that's ever seen me do it knows it. I did it for 1 season (1987) just to go through the upgrading system. I take my hat off to those of you that do it and do it so well. My personal favouritte being John Baker @ Brands.

The answer to the question posed in the thread is 'no'!
This post just proves the point - The Fat Clerk is the best clerk I ever work with (we always say that he and I don't need radios - we have telepathy!) and yet...... I was a Flag Marshal for years when the grade was a 'stand alone', I was very proud to be one, loved every minute, had some great experiences and made some good friends and never really wanted to do anything else. Did that make me a bad or incomplete marshal? - don't answer!
We are volunteers - we are carrying out a vocational hobby/interest in a challenging environment and I think it's fair to say that we all want to do the best and most professional job possible ....... but it IS a vocational interest. 'Making people' carry out roles/training that they are uncomfortable with is a slippery slope and takes away the biggest motivator - pleasure. I'm not wishing to enter the debate on training and grading but can we please have a sense of proportion and acceptance that we all do this for pleasure - become too prescriptive and regimented and we are in danger of stifling initiative and PLEASURE

p.s. agree about John Baker - an inspiration to us all.

[sunny.traveller]

[QUOTE=juliet;2976108] The other thing that puts me offis that quite often flagging is a fairly solitary position, one of the main draws of marshalling for me is the banter and the feeling of being part of the team. QUOTE]

I guess that depends on the circuit and the post you are on, I mostly marshal at Brands Hatch and the flag points on the Indy circuit at in the same position as the incident points - so plenty of oppotunity for banter & sharing of skills/knowledge.

I'll be at the Birkett at Silverstone on Saturday where I am sure I will be flagging - an super race to flag I must say. And John Baker will be there as well, so you can meet hime & see his excellent flagging skills.

[juliet]

I will have to keep my eye out for you sunny.traveller as i am also there on Saturday and then the weekend after for the walter hayes.

I would love it if you guys could change my mind and get me interested in flagging because as we know if i do want to upgrade i am going to have to master it. maybe i just need a bit of inspiration!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Well I guess the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory. In several of the threads on here I've noticed that there seem to be a few people who believe that to be a good marshal you need to be happy flagging but is this the case and have these "good" marshals ever tried any of the other specialisations?

For me I'd like to see all trainees give each role a go so maybe to become a qualified marshal they could do 20 days Incident, 2 days Flag and 2 days Specialist (for trainee Specialists swap the days for Incident and Specialist above) that way they would be able to decide what role they wished to follow and if they don't want to ever flag again then they wouldn't have to.

good thread but i noticed about the "good" marshal statement, its like everything in life, you dont become "good" if youre willing to do something a lot of people dont like. just like if youve got no problems doing flagging or incident, you might be more prepared if a post is undermanned but it doesnt make marshals better or good than one another, that's up for other people to decide.
imo flags should undoubtably be more than 2 days, even if the first upgrade is a basic knowledge of what the flags do. maybe the dislike for flags may have left you with the appreciation for flagging as it is something that takes more than just a few days to get right...

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by juliet

occasionally waving the green flag and i really didnt enjoy it.

if it was neither an fia event or the lap after safety car gone in, you might not have enjoyed it for all the people telling they were doing it wrong!

p.s. the only thing, does it have to be silverstone flaggies only that can tempt you into flagging?

[NewYankee01]

[QUOTE=Sparky-steve;2976234]i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.
QUOTE]

"waste meets" is a very dodgy thing to say as a marshal about a meeting, very dodgy indeed, it makes you sound like youre upgrade chasing with due respect... this is coming from a white to green this year, difference is ive done 30+ day incident which isnt my preffered but i feel im more ready when i upgraded. take youre time, then you wont feel like youre "wasting weekends" trying to get as many meetings within a year so you can maybe upgrade in as short a time as possible. even if you continue in feeling that way dont say that on here fcs!

[juliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

"waste meets" is a very dodgy thing to say as a marshal about a meeting, very dodgy indeed, it makes you sound like youre upgrade chasing

With respect newyankee i didnt read it like that at all, I admit that it might not be the best use of words but we all marshal because we love it, we drive for miles and give up time with our friends and family because we enjoy what we do. i interpreted that comment as more there are things that he would rather have done with his weekend than flagging. and i dont think there is a crime in that