BRDC british f3 2016 (was brdc f4)

[brands hatch]

Another single seater series announced: http://news.motorsportvision.co.uk/m...-for-2013.aspx

http://www.formula4.com/


Attempting to cash in on FR UK and the failure that is now British formula ford perhaps.

[JNWRF01]

I think they are looking at a totally diff market to Ren and FFord - £30k buys you are 3/4 of a FF EcoBoost and about half a Formula Ren! And the runnning budgets are in line with current BARC - but racing on bigger meetings with the clout of MSV/BRDC behind it.

The cars are very similar to current F4 spec cars without the LD200 (which is the current weakspot) - so I can see them being cheap to run and with non-carbon wings, cheaper to repair than a BARC car.. Difficult to see what there is not to like...!

[andy97]

Hmm, an interesting development, but cuts across what BARC F Renault and the F Ford series are supposed to be doing (the latter allegedly contemplating wings), I'd have thought.

Also, doesn't 750mc "own" the F4 monicker?

Also, MSVR already has Monoposto and Club F3 on its books (and the latter has had some like Aaron Steele(?) use it as a platform for better things), so where does this fit in?

[brands hatch]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

I think they are looking at a totally diff market to Ren and FFord -

Will still be an increase in interest due to FR and FF somewhat lacking in anything at the moment. A potential FF driver will now look at this as a much better and cheaper alternative IMO.

I agree the concept seems pretty good. Although the provisional calender is also lacking variety, 2 visits to Snetterton leaves a lot to be desired, as well as two visits to brands (albeit on different layouts).

[Sodemo]

Is it just me that thinks there are already too many single seater series (and touring cars for that matter). Surely having a unified standard would mean that costs could come down and would mean a greater number of second hand cars could be used in other series?

[Flavio Galtieri]

Having looked through the details on the web this looks firmly placed to kill off Formula Ford, not that Ford haven't been doing rather a good job of that themselves...

The cars look good, the Firman and Cosworth "heritage" will reassure customers and the costs appear reasonable.

There are two things missing imho.

A decent prize fund and the requirement that any new applicant for an Int. C Licence must have participated in at least 6 F4 races.

Otherwise the rich kids will just skip this and go straight from Karts to F3 as they do now, thereby making the whole exercise useless in terms of evaluating new talent.

[andrewc]

MSV now have three of their own single seater championships.

• an entry level single seater championship in BRDC Formula 4.
  
• a mid level single seater championship in F3 Cup
  
• a high end single seater championship in F2

as well as Monoposto (who are currently on MSV's portfolio) as a home for club racers.

It would be easier for new or young teams to break into F4 than breaking into FR BARC as the established teams have a decades worth plus of data and setup notes. The Formula Renault from Tatuus that BARC use was introduced 12 yrs ago now.

[bella]

i don't have an immediate reaction either way to this.

on the one hand it's annoying for continuity's sake that they haven't used the f4/formul'academy setup used by the ffsa in a very similar role to keep the bills down. on the other, it's good to see a new flow of business and money going through the british motorsport engineering industry.

it's good to see someone stepping into the obvious breech left by fford shooting itself in the face, but i remain skeptical till i see a decent sized grid and some enthusiastic engineers.

cautiously optimistic!

[Sodemo]

Sorry for being ignorant, but what exactly has happened to Formula Ford? The last thing I remember of it was being on the BTCC support bill and getting really decent grids...?

[dasc04]

I honestly don't see where/how this is going to fit in with the current climate?

What teams are going to buy these cars that don't already have BARC FRenaults that are happily making money for them and were paid off years ago. Teams aren't mega cash cows with excess to spend and bags to invest. It's tough at the best of times.

What "family run" entrants have the money to go and buy a brand new car at full price of £29,750 +engine lease at £4500 (+VAT??) and then have another £30k-£40 to run them for a year?

What team or family is willing to take the risk in the current climate that the series thrives and becomes a huge success with full grids when long time established series are currently struggling or disapearing totally?

BARC Renault is doing exceptionally well with around 25 entries but like I mentioned above the cars have been paid for years ago and the budgets are (relatively) affordable.

There is not one series in the UK at the moment that is "in the glory days" era of full grids, reserves, oversubscribed entries like there used to be. So what do the people at the top do? They introduce another!!! Crazy!

JNWRF01 you say they are looking to a totally different market to FRen and FFord. What market is that? I don't think there is one!!!

At the end of the day, it has no effect on me whether it succeeds or fails. But Mr Palmers comment: "It is clear that British motorsport needs a new single seater championship". Come on? Seriously?!

[brakedisc]

I am a great fan of JP and all he has done with MSV but I think that he has got this one wrong. Yes I know he has all the right names behind the series and that it will be held on top tracks with good promotion but the specification of the car is too complicated. Complication costs money either in the short or long term and it will be interesting to see how Ralph Firman brings it in on budget. Interesting to see where the engines come from too as the 2L Duratec has been out of production for a while now and other formula have been warned that they will not be about for much longer.

It is a missed chance, because we desperately need a simple cheap to run formula similar to FF1600 but with a reliable engine in the back. For me it has to be a free chassis formula to encourage the next generation of designers/engineers into manufacturing. A simple spaceframe, no wings, no castings, no slicks, a 4 speed transaxle with a gear lever and a maximum price of £15k? That would do it for me but it is obvious from the way single seater formulas have gone in recent years it would not do for those that make their living from the sport.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Sorry for being ignorant, but what exactly has happened to Formula Ford? The last thing I remember of it was being on the BTCC support bill and getting really decent grids...?

That was a few years ago. It's been dying a slow death for years but the fact that you have had a dominant chassis (Mygale) and a dominant team (Jamun) started a decline which was exacerbated by Ford inexplicably introducing the expensive carbon fibre turbo "Ecoboost" this year thereby rendering the excellent and relatively affordable Duratec cars obsolete overnight.

As far as I can see the grids this year have been pathetic, which is a real shame because in previous years there has been some great racing and some real talent in the series.

Something had to be done. Whether this is it or not I don't know, but at least it's an effort to get back to a sensible budget in a car you can run yourself. Time will tell I guess.

[threadbear]

Interestingly, a little sentence at the bottom says "Subject to MSA approval" so how will MSA justify granting a permit for yet another single seater championship? I think JP might have a point that there is a niche to fill, but if they are honest to themselves and their historical philosophy, they will not sanction Intersteps, or Formula Ford, neither of which have produced the required numbers for viable championships. Replacing 2 with 1 could make some sense ... On the other hand, there could be some serious arm twisting as usual!

[dank]

Originally Posted by andy97

Hmm, an interesting development, but cuts across what BARC F Renault and the F Ford series are supposed to be doing (the latter allegedly contemplating wings), I'd have thought.

Also, doesn't 750mc "own" the F4 monicker?

Also, MSVR already has Monoposto and Club F3 on its books (and the latter has had some like Aaron Steele(?) use it as a platform for better things), so where does this fit in?

MSV have managed to buy/obtain the name from the 750MC.

[ivanalesi]

I think there's still very little information to make a reasonable judgement on the future of this championship.
In principal, it must be good when Van Diemen make a slicks/wings car for 30k and hopefully the parts pricelist is also as competitively priced. In essence, the 2000 Tatuus is just about the same technology as any of the other single-seaters, be it the new or current Renault or Abarth, but somehow there has been no effort in mass producing the chassis and thus bringing the costs down. If Van Diemen can slash the costs by 50% and make it as fast, then I think it's a very good news to all.
Let's be a little more positive and give them a chance Also I'm pretty sure the championship will be run very, very professionally by MSV.

[formerf1champ]

Just more new cars for a new Formula Libre class, sometime in the future.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

I think there's still very little information to make a reasonable judgement on the future of this championship.
In principal, it must be good when Van Diemen make a slicks/wings car for 30k and hopefully the parts pricelist is also as competitively priced. In essence, the 2000 Tatuus is just about the same technology as any of the other single-seaters, be it the new or current Renault or Abarth, but somehow there has been no effort in mass producing the chassis and thus bringing the costs down. If Van Diemen can slash the costs by 50% and make it as fast, then I think it's a very good news to all.
Let's be a little more positive and give them a chance Also I'm pretty sure the championship will be run very, very professionally by MSV.

Where do you get £30k from. It's £30k + VAT plus an engine for at least £5k + VAT each season. A few sets of rims and tyres and it's £45 k minimum and you'll at least double that running the car.

I wonder how many will fall for it?

[ivanalesi]

I haven't read the website info very thoroughly, but again, it's a lower price. The parts price list is more important and we have to see how fast it will be on the track.

[JNWRF01]

Originally Posted by REALIST

Where do you get £30k from. It's £30k + VAT plus an engine for at least £5k + VAT each season. A few sets of rims and tyres and it's £45 k minimum and you'll at least double that running the car.

I wonder how many will fall for it?

I am little confused here - you pay for your engines on a annual or mileage basis - roughly a pound a mile - which seems bang in line with other formulas in terms of rebuild costs - except you don't have to go and buy an engine. Someone on here will remind me what FF Duratec leases cost per year - but I think about £8-9k pa from memory. So seems OK on that count.

Chassis cost £30k complete (ie dampers/loggers etc) - which looks approx same as the Duratec chassis were before you added dampers, loggers etc etc. The current FF cars are just way to much money...

I suspect the wheels will be as per current OZ prices - £200 a wheel approx - you will need 3 spare sets roughly - so about £2500 there. From what I have been told about spares - they will be similar to national FF prices - but obv things like front / rear wings are not carbon fibre and thus be cheaper to replace than the FRen carbon ones.

We know from FF Duratec/Sports 2000 the engines are bulletproof and lightweight so the cars will handle properly (unlike the FF Zetec cars). Tyres currently used in F4 (also Yokos) are about £550 inc carriage and VAT...and front what I am told, are very consistant over a long period of say 3-4 races.

So I don't really see what people are "going to fall for.."? This seems a sensible proposal for newcomers and hobby racers alike - as a hobby racer, I would prefer to own an engine - but that is just me being panickity..

I raced FF in the early 1990s - a new roller was approximately the price of a hot hatch road car - this formula looks a million times better and will be a little bit more than the current price of say a Golf GTI etc etc so on an "affordability" basis, it looks spot on. No-one complained in the 1980s/1990s about the comparitive price of FF, they just bought them and got involved.

We all wish we could race for little or no cash - but that is not just going to happen - racing is expensive, period. This looks an affordable formula that racers can get into on simlar money to a Super1 karting budget and be successful. Whether the MSV prizes/promotions will tempt any BARC Teams away is anyone's guess - but if this does take off - it would make the basis of a perfect one circuit championship for some of us more experienced racers..

[JNWRF01]

sorry - one last point - this whole thing about needing a MacLaren's junior team to run your car to win the championship - from memory - Tim Bridgeman won FBMW in its first year out of a Dastle trailer with a part time mechanic...

[andrewc]

According to MSV's latest press release, they've had 40 serious enquiries, from privateers and teams, these teams being those from Intersteps, BARC Renault and FFord.

[bella]

yeah see the thing about teams enquiring about a series is that any team will do any series if a driver wants to do it and has the money to pay for it. it's the duty of every racing team to make sure they know what the score is, lest there be a driver who wants to do it. if a driver rings you up and asks about a series and would you be entering it, it doesn't look very good if you don't know what it is...

[brakedisc]

Bella,

very true.

The engine deal interests me. The Duratec is out of production and other formulas who use it are already looking for its replacement. Yes there is some stock and prices were decent but like all good things it will not last. Any chance that someone has bought the remaining engines and has turned them into F4 engines for lease only? As for the cost of the car, with a specification like that I suspect it is the cost of spares the teams will have to worry about.

It is a missed chance. There is a despertate need for a cheap open chassis single seater formula. Everyone knows this so why does the powers that be keep allowing formulas with fancy prices?

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

I am little confused here - you pay for your engines on a annual or mileage basis - roughly a pound a mile - which seems bang in line with other formulas in terms of rebuild costs - except you don't have to go and buy an engine. Someone on here will remind me what FF Duratec leases cost per year - but I think about £8-9k pa from memory. So seems OK on that count.

Chassis cost £30k complete (ie dampers/loggers etc) - which looks approx same as the Duratec chassis were before you added dampers, loggers etc etc. The current FF cars are just way to much money...

I suspect the wheels will be as per current OZ prices - £200 a wheel approx - you will need 3 spare sets roughly - so about £2500 there. From what I have been told about spares - they will be similar to national FF prices - but obv things like front / rear wings are not carbon fibre and thus be cheaper to replace than the FRen carbon ones.

We know from FF Duratec/Sports 2000 the engines are bulletproof and lightweight so the cars will handle properly (unlike the FF Zetec cars). Tyres currently used in F4 (also Yokos) are about £550 inc carriage and VAT...and front what I am told, are very consistant over a long period of say 3-4 races.

So I don't really see what people are "going to fall for.."? This seems a sensible proposal for newcomers and hobby racers alike - as a hobby racer, I would prefer to own an engine - but that is just me being panickity..

I raced FF in the early 1990s - a new roller was approximately the price of a hot hatch road car - this formula looks a million times better and will be a little bit more than the current price of say a Golf GTI etc etc so on an "affordability" basis, it looks spot on. No-one complained in the 1980s/1990s about the comparitive price of FF, they just bought them and got involved.

We all wish we could race for little or no cash - but that is not just going to happen - racing is expensive, period. This looks an affordable formula that racers can get into on simlar money to a Super1 karting budget and be successful. Whether the MSV prizes/promotions will tempt any BARC Teams away is anyone's guess - but if this does take off - it would make the basis of a perfect one circuit championship for some of us more experienced racers..

You've neglected to include VAT. The car is £36k inclusive. The tyres are £650 a set and the rims are nearer to F3 than FF so expect nearer £1300 a set than £800. For a space frame, not even a carbon tub.

I'm not sure what the wings are made of but in my experience a fabricated aluminium wing isn't much cheaper than a carbon one.

MSVR estimates of running cost, privately, are up to £40K

There are several series, some with arguably better cars, that can be run for this money or less.

Why do we need another?

BTW, I doubt many experienced racers would get much from this series and I doubt there'll be many moving from BARC FR. We'll see.

[brakedisc]

Bound to fail, Matt James has given it a big thumbs up.