Brabham BT 2

[Wayne Mitchell]

Hi everyone.
I have just acquired a 22 year barn find Brabham BT2that needs identifying. It was last raced in Texas and earlier in Florida. I would love to talk to anyone associated with a Doc Wiley, Bill W.E. Anspach, Bud Bakels or anyone from that area with knowledge of Jr races. There is of course no S/N but from the stories it may have been the one Frank Gardener brought to US in 1962/63. (Ref Duncan Rabagliati)
This is a real car with many original parts and original construction technigues. Some very odd details which may help identify it as to s/n
Any body help further. Wayne Mitchell www.dogrings.com 760-942-9170 ( Calif)

[Bryan Miller]

Wayne,
Re. my message on the Brabham site,re. the adjustable rear ride height set up.
As I said FJ-8-62 had this, and this was Franks works car,BUT the other driver at the factory was Tasmanian Gavin Youl, who started his season a little later than Frank.

Nominally FJ-1-61 , was the MRD.
Thence FJ-2-62 , was to be Franks car , but it was sold to Briggs Cunningham in the U.S.A. afaik.
So FJ-3-62 , I bet became Franks car for early in the season ,certainly this was Gavin Youls car , as at the end of the season he returned to Australia with it and it is still here , complete with chassis plate.
FJ-4-62 , don't think I know , could be yours.??
FJ-5-62 went to France , Jean Moench. spelling?
FJ-6-62 to the Late Bob Olthoff with a BMC 1098 , then an 1100cc Ford and ended up as a road car in S.E.Asia, before coming to OZ in the 80's , sold a few years ago to/via Len Selby U.K.
FJ-7-62 , ????
FJ-8-62 , as stated Franks works car, and my theory is Frank started the season in FJ-3-62 , that then went to Gavin Youl , and Frank built himself a new one.
FJ-9/10/11/ ,don't think I know ,as I am doing this all from memory.
FJ-12-62 , ex factory 28-12-1962, via Frank Gardner for Alec Mildren Racing for customer David Walker.

Lets see what anybody else can add , or correct if I got it wrong .

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Wayne ,

Have you checked both posts on the Brabham site , as on one I advised that you need to get a copy of Sports Car Graphic [ U.S.A. magazine ] July 1962 , as this has a superb track test with great photo's to assist you.
Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

David McKinney, can we do a bulk purchase on memory chips if you decide that is what is required.

FJ-5-62 should I think be to Jo Schlesser, and maybe Moench either another chassis no. or -5 after Schlesser.

Sorry Bryan.
All my intimate records on the BT2s went to Col Haste when I sold FJ-12-62 to him.

[David McKinney]

Not sure I can add much
•I had Geoff McClelland’s 1963-64 car as “2 or 3”, so I guess 3 is right?
•FJ-4-62 went to the delightfully name Auto Inter-Course team and was driven by Jean Moench 1962. Sold to English-resident Klaas ‘Jimmy’ Twisk 1963, Ray Moore for F3 1964 but killed at, I think, Oulton Park. Apparently went to Australia, brought back to UK c1990 by John Harper, restored by Peter Denty, raced since 1997 by Simon Ham
•FJ-5-62 - the second Intercourse car, raced by Schlesser 1962-63 (including F1 in 1963)

Which car did Jon Davison race in 1969?

AFAIK only one BT2 went to USA new, though of course there might have been another later

[Bryan Miller]

David,

Yes , I too loved the name Auto Inter-course.
Had never been aware of FJ-4-62 coming here out of period.
Geoff McClelland purchased FJ-3-62 from Gavin Youl.

Jon Davidson ran the ex Greg Cusack , ex Henk Woelders BT6 FJ-15-63. Now in the hands of Peter Johnson in Sydney.

Do you agree that the new BT2 to the states was for Briggs Cunningham.?

Bryan.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Do you agree that the new BT2 to the states was for Briggs Cunningham.?

Don't know.
I have the Cunningham car listed without a number, and nothing alongside car #2. And the timing fits
Thanks for the other confirmation(s)

[Mike.ca]

No one has mentioned the BT-2 that Ernie DeVos of Montreal raced to victories in Canada and the eastern US in 1963. The car was offered for sale in the March, 1964 issue of Canada Track & Traffic. Unfortunately, the serial number was not mentioned in the ad. Maybe it went south.

You wouldn't be the Wayne Mitchell who raced in British F3, would you?

[Wayne Mitchell]

I have just spoken to Frank Gardener about the BT2. His recollection is that they had no S/N and it was done in a clandestine manner since they were only 1/2 mile from Cooper's and Jack was still working on becoming World Champion. He recollects Briggs Cunningham getting a car and he went on to build another one for himself. The first few chassis were built by him and Peter Wilkins. The subsequent chassis were made by Buckler Cars and electric iron welded. Franks work was all nickle bronze welded including the first chassis drawn up by Ron T which was iron welded by the vendor and nickle bronze welded as they modified it to fit the engine. It was a while before arch Motors became involved. He figure chassis number 2 would be it since 3 was his next car and it is documented at this point. Will advise the details as they unfold. Wayne Mitchell

[Wayne Mitchell]

Mike:
Sorry for being a year late in replying. Been busy researching and working.m
Yes I am the one. I remeber Ernie DeVos racing that BT2 and wish I had paid more attention to it. After being raised and educated as a Mech Engr in Manitoba, I raced Quebec region until I left for USA in 1967 and then UK for 3 yrs F3. When broke financially i returned to Calif and been here ever since. This BT2 is an interesting car. Anybody happen to have detailed close up picture of DeVos Car?
Cheers Wayne Mitchell

[Neptune]

Wayne et al:

I believe there is a photo of DeVos sitting in a FJr in the Mid-Ohio 1964 yearbook, so photo was probably taken in '63. I'll look for my copy as soon as I can. This may show some details of the cockpit.

Roger

[Neptune]

I was correct about the photo, but it is in an almost horizontal plane so there is little detail inside the car. There is also one other shot fo the grid forming up in three wide rows, w/ the Brabham on pole. This was a suppost race in 1963 for the USRRC.

Today we only use two wide rows, even after the track was widened in the early 90s. I'll try to scan these photos tonite.

Roger

[allenbrown]

Wayne T. Mitchell? The king of Formula C? Driver of Lotus 22, Brabham BT21B and even a Brabham BT29?

Tell us more...

[Wayne Mitchell]

Owner of Brabhams since 1968, BT21B purchased from Frank Williams until latest BT2 purchased unrstored from Louisiana in 2004 and 7 in between. What more do you need. I need help searching history of this car. Most salient features are: 4 2" hole for instruments plus the Smiths Tachometer hole and the rear shock inner mounton a rocker arrangement to change ride height in about 2 minuted that pivots on the on the bolt that anchors the upper link to chassis. I need pictures of known cars from the era other than a photo at speed at 500 yards(Meters). Will trade stories from the era for help??? How is that for an offer? Cheers Wayne Mitchell

[Wayne Mitchell]

I have been in contact with anyone who expresses knowledge or has photos of the BT2 in the FJr era. I was in UK for the 1000 cc era and lived in a void as far as Juniors were concerned in Canada. I was also a Mech engr student and as close as we came to racing cars was Sports Car book we shared.
I am specifically looking for photos of motor mounts on chassis and what bolted between the block and thses mounts. Boy would a cutaway be helpfull. The chassis on my car has original mounts, damaged, but everybody tells me the bolts always go transversely across the chassis not longtitudinally for and aft as my car is set up for. (Good aircraft practise.)

[Bryan Miller]

Wayne,
Early in this thread I advised re. Sports Car Graphic 1962 , did you find a copy.
Bryan.

[Wayne Mitchell]

Bryan: Yes, I have a copy of the John Blunsden Track test in the July 1962 SCG.
it is helpful to some degree. I also have found an Autosport March 8 1963 which has cutaway of a BT6. Autosport Feb 9 1962 has a synopsis of the 1961 season of F Jr which is helpful. I am trying to see if there was a similar article for the 1962 season which would be helpful as far as history. Still looking for an answer of the 4 2" holes in dash plus tach and the rocker ride height at rear as a definite indication of which car it is. The dash should tell since the holes are exactly symetrical and the welding is original. I am working on chassis and have just about finished it. It needs resolution of the motor mount issue with the bolts on mine in line with chassis not transverse as all othe Brabham cars I know.

[Bryan Miller]

Wayne,

As per earlier in this thread , I owned and rebuilt FJ-8-62 , now in the states, it had the rear rocker ride ht. as per yours , FJ-12-62 which I also owned did not , and I simply can't remember about FJ-6-62 , now for sale with Len Selby, the other car here is FJ-3-62 and I think it did, which would make sense as this was Franks 1st car before going to Gavin Youl and Frank building up FJ-8-62 for himself.
Reading your notes on discussion with Frank , A.M. numbers cannot be on a car earlier than a BT14/15/16 series as they were not involved at that stage.
I stand corrected , but believe the majority of early cars were Progress Chassis[ Frank Coltman ] manufacture after the Buckler range .

I have recently been contacted by the new owner of FJ-8-62 in the U.S . to supply info. and photos, which distresses me greatly as this was researched to the nth degree and all notes etc. went with the car , all to be lost by some idiots.

If you require his email please PM me .

Re. chassis plates , when last seen FJ-8-62 still had it's brass plate on dash with 4 rivets.

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

I was not comfortable with some of the info, so went digging.

All via Black book 1962-1964 , no chassis numbers in this book, however can make some very good conclusions.

Very much to my surprise the first ref. to a BT2 is with Dick Thompson at Sebring 23-3-1962.
Next up is Brabham Racing at Oulton Park 7-4-1962 with Frank Gardner , should be FJ-3-62.
The next new entries are Jo Schlesser and Jean Moench both in same race at Montlhery , 29-4-1962.Chassis -4 and -5 .
Next is Brabham Racing with both FJ-3-62 and FJ-8-62 at Silverstone for Gardner and for the first time Gavin Youl , 12-5-1962.
Then at Cadwell Park enters Bob Olthoff [ Team Springbox ]BT2-Ford. 20-5-1962. [ FJ-6-62]

Then at Bridgehampton , 3-6-1962 , enter Briggs Cunninham .
Next up , in which car ???? but entered by Brabham Racing is Denis Hulme at Crystal Palace , NOTE , only Brabham Racing entry for the meeting.
By now Olthoff's car has gone to BMC power .
At Road America [ Elkhart Lake ] enters Hap Sharp , 16-6-1962.

At Reims 1-7-1962 we have Gardner, Youl, Schlesser and Moench , while on the same day Olthoff is at Snetterton.

At Watkins Glen ,Driver Augie Pabst , entrant Briggs Cunningham. 14-10-1962.

At Silverstone , 6-10-1962 , we have F.C. Ward,

However all the other U.K./French owned cars still appear with their respective owners/drivers .

We can account for [ probably] , the following.
FJ-2-62 [ Thompson / Sebring / March 62.]??????????????
FJ-3-62 ,Works/ Gardner at first then Youl.
FJ-4-62 , France ,
FJ-5-62 , France.
FJ-6-62 , Olthoff / Ford then BMC.
FJ-7-62, could be a second car to the U.S.A. [ Hap Sharp or Briggs Cunningham , or an entry by Briggs for Sharp.]
Could also be the car in the U.K. for F.C.Ward.
FJ-8-62 , Works / Gardner after early car to Youl.
FJ-9-62, ?????????
FJ-10-62, ???????
FJ-11-62 ,?? but as a real weird one this chassis plate is supposedly fitted to Bib StillwellsBT4[ IC-2-62 ] and the number is reported in correspondence into 1970 by Stillwell, I have seen the letter , but also reported in Historic Racing Cars in Australia [ new MK2 version just released ]
FJ-12-62 , new via Alec Mildren Racing [ Australia ] for customer David Walker ex factory [ info from works about 25 years ago]26-12-1962.

Into 1963 Phillipe Martel appears early with a BT2 then goes to a BT6 , [ a note I have advises he wrote off the BT6 , but maybe it was the BT2 ]
And David McKinney advises the Moench car goes to Klaas Twisk [ The Tulip Stable]
F.C. Ward still has his in mid 1963.

That is the full list of people with these cars in the black book till the end of 1963.

To the few who are not aware FJ-1-61 was the MRD and no FJ-1-62 appears to have been numbered.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

Bryan . I have 9-62 as being Geddes Yeates,10-62 as Ernie De Voss,11-62 Fiddle Carnet No for IC-3-62(F1-4-62) Bib Stillwell BT4. 12-62 Mildren delivered 28-12-62

[Bryan Miller]

Ted,
Thanks, it was 28-12-1962 for FJ-12-62 .
FJ-9-62 , Geddes Yeates , U.S.A. or U.K. ??
FJ-10-62 , I suspected Ernie de Vos would appear on the radar screen, Lola MK5 in the U.S. in 1962.
FJ-7-62 , F.C.Ward in the U.K. or a second car to the U.S.A ????

Bryan.

[David McKinney]

Geddes Yeates and F C Ward were both UK-based

[Bryan Miller]

Thanks , David .
What I am wondering out loud is ,
1]Thompson / Sebring , is this actually the Cunningham car.??..
2]If no to above , I would be o.k. with the tie up of Hap Sharp/Augie Pabst/ Cunningham, but that then gives us two cars in the U.S.A. in 1962.
3] Yes , Ward was only in the U.K. races , but also into mid 1963 , what ch.no. is this.???

Answering myself , we seem to be one car short , only if FJ-2-62 does not get tied between Thompson to/ for Cunningham collection.

As Ted has advised -9 and -10 to owners , if Ward had -7 , we then have -3/-4/-5/-6/-8/-12 all tied up , if the Thopmson/Cunningham combo is inncorrect we are a car short by my reasoning.

Hope you can follow me .

Unless , and it would not be the first time ,we have two FJ-11-62 , one as a car , and one as a convenient chassis plate.

What a tangelled web we weave.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

I might be about to "throw a large spanner in the works" over a long mis-identified car.Cant say more at the moment.

[Ted Walker]

Sorry, David I meant to say UK based.