8 1/2 minute qualifying

[kartingdad]

Why bother with 20 minute qualifying sessions, when you can do it in 8 1/2 minutes?

The Brands Hatch Zetec winter series has found a new way to cut costs, thanks to a clever initiative by the BRSCC C of C at this weekends race. Designed to save daylight time, it was a brilliant move which had the added bonus of randomising the grid, who foolishly thought they were to get 20 minutes to post a representative time.

next will be a further cost cutting measure of 3 lap races. This will enable the BRSCC to have 60 races per meeting which will surely bring in the crowds.

Entry fees for 2004 will remain at 2003 bargain prices.

Oh, by the way, despite the shortened qualifying session to save time, if your race is red flagged, you can now drag your car to the restart and change your damaged wheel on the grid, thereby losing all the time the 'organisers'(LOL) gained in the shortened qualifying session to allow a JLR car to continue, despite being involved in an accident.

LOL!!!!

[diz]

KD
What happened to Patrick Hogan at the weekend?

[greenamex2]

As an 'experienced' competitor it is very rare that I need the full qualifying session to set a good time. Often I come in early to save the car etc.

When I was even more rubbish than I am now I needed every single second of the qualifying session.

So, personally I am actually in favour of shorter practice sessions but can understand why others wouldn't be.

As for shorter races but more of them this depends whether I am in the lead or trying to get in the lead!

I think the problem is the gaps between the races, they need to be reduced to give better value to the spectator and allow more races in a day to reduce entry fees. I am sure the marshalls out there can explain why they are so long but also what could be done to reduce them.

[kartingdad]

Patrick Hogan had a gearbox/diff failure in race one. Infinity worked like mentalists to sort his car, but he had to start from the pitlane. Involved in a 3 car accident on lap one or two and was out on the spot.

Denis, I understand what you are saying about qualifying, but the conditions on sunday were so wet and unpredictable, it made better sense to find out where the deepest puddles were before going for it, particularly as it was a double header, making qualifying even more important than usual.

[Stephen Green]

I think you will find that some of the delays were caused by recovery crews collecting stranded cars from the circuit. Under normal circumstances (and this weekends were not normal in my opinion) assuming there are no recoveries to be made, we go straight into the next practice or race. Of course if there are several cars to be collected from the earlier session, or your own if it is red flagged, them daylight hours sometimes dictate sessions have to be shortened.

[jonathanc]

errm, I may be missing something but why should we pay as much as we do and get even less track time???

I dont care about how many races they can get into a day, all I want is some decent track time.

I started this year as a complete novice and indeed need every minute on track in order to qualify especially on a track Im not used to.

I can see why some more experienced racers would be happy, but on the whole I wouldnt have thought it would be OK for the majority.

If the BRSCC reduced qualifying times and increased race distances/times, then this would indeed be a different matter.

[Stephen Green]

jonathan, sometimes accidents take longer to 'clear up' than others and that can eat into the running order for the day. Under those conditions, if all sessions lasted their full time then it is quite possible the racers who are last on the program might not get a race at all. Normally sessions are reduced in time in order to give everyone a chance to race.

Another factor, especially during the winter months, is the weather. Last weekend we had fog which meant racing/practice has to be halted. The organisers, whoever they are, cannot always take thoise factors into account when the day is originally planned.

[Barny]

We the competitors (customers) pay an entry fee (asking price) for a service (practice session and race) and that is what we should recieve, if not we should have a full or partial refund, as any other customer paying for an item or service expects. Extremes in weather permiting.If the organisors cannot fulfill thier contract with their customers, they should pay.

[Bob Pearson]

You are absolutely right Barny, I can just imagine a cold shudder running through an army of blazers as you typed that.

[Stephen Green]

I understand your views and have some sympathy but, look at this another way. Drivers, teams and marshals alike have been trying to think of ways to get more people through the gates in order that there is an arguement to present to the circuits for reduced hire charges. One way to try and achieve these goals is to put on lots of racing with small gaps between each race. By doing this you automatically open the door to delays caused by unforseen accidents or poor weather conditions.

I guess what I am saying is that we can't have it both ways.

[Barny]

Stephen, I understand that the organisors are trying to squeeze as many races in as possible to make as much profit as possible, but BRSSCC run more races per day and more meetings a year than the the BARC yet charge a higher entry fee, so the competitor is loosing in both ways and the club is winning in both ways.

[Bob Pearson]

I'd be surprised if many drivers ever believed that they would see ( either directly or indirectly) a part of any
increased revenue resulting from more people through the gate. I suspect that most drivers are like me and simply hope to get a fair days running for our expenditure.

[Stephen Green]

Sorry Bob, my arguement was that IF we manage to get more spectators then there is a strong arguement for the organising clubs (all of them) to negotiate a lower fee for hiring the track. If that were so then it seems reasonable to assume that would be passed on to teams and drivers through lower entry fees?

As members of the BRSCC or BARC or whichever clubs you are members of, you would then have the right as a body to approach senior officials to press for the reduction.

I must say that last weekend for me provided some excellent racing in just about every catagory, largely due to the efforts of James Tucker and the Britcar people, Rod Birley and the BRSCC and doubless many more. Surely meetings like this with good grids and good racing are the future for club motorsport?

I'm not trying to defend the BRSCC over fees etc, merely trying to say that a full race program inevitably leads to delays and cancellations from time to time. (sounds a bit like the announcer for Connex SE doesn't it? )

[johnw]

This spectator/gate money discussion is also on the following thread
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...5&pagenumber=1

I went to Brands on Saturday and it was an excellent programme, with the drivers doing an outstanding job in the conditions. But I think that I could have fitted the number of spectators into my car. Who would have pocketed the gate money. EERC, BRSCC or BHL?
See thread for more on this theme.

[Tim Falce]

(sounds a bit like the announcer for Connex SE doesn't it? )
I wonder how long before the BRSCC go the same way as Connex SE

[Piglet]

Without wishing to get involved in the ongoing discussion, another cause of delay before going into the next race is when the reg's for that race stipulate a countdown procedure. You can't start a countdown (that usually starts with something like 2 minutes to pit lane opening) until you are sure that you will be able to open the pit lane in time (so when you are SURE that the recoveries will be clear, tyre walls rebuilt etc.) and then there is perhaps a 5 or 10 minute period where the pit lane is open and then time on the grid etc. etc.

I'm sure to a spectator, and another competitor (and probably a marshal on the other side of a circuit) this can seem like dead time.

[kartingdad]

A lot of the people here seem to be missing my point. How can you justify sending the next grouop of cars out to qualify before oor session was due to even finish.


The Zetecs were due to qualify between 10.45 - 11.05.

According to MST they ran between 10.41 -10.50, showing therefore that they went out AHEAD of schedule, which should have been 10.45 - 11.10.

The following group of cars went out at 10.57, showing that 1/. There was no delay in proceedings and,

2/. Sending the Zetecs out for the remaining 12 minutes would have meant that they would have finished as per the original schedule and

3/. The man making the decisions on the day should try something less demanding as the self induced stress he was obviously under was obviously shortening his life.

I would love to hear the justification from a BRSCC grownup for this debacle.
What the BRSCC seem to forget is that if there was no BRSCC we would still race, but without the drivers the BRSCC would have nothing to do at all.

I am not trying to be controversial, it's just that I (amongst other people) was pretty frustrated by a decision that compromised not just one but two important (to us) races in a manner that was both high handed and arrogant.

[Bob Pearson]

Your words, kartingdad, say it all. There can be no justification for that. I had jumped to the conclusion that BRSCC were trying to recover from a time deficit brought on by the usual over optimistic scheduling which in turn is there to improve there income.

[Tim Falce]

Maybe, as the BRSCC seem to be so unpopular, we should vote with our wallets. They seem to take a lot of stick but not much changes.

[Stephen Green]

Have you asked the BRSCC why it happened?

[jonathanc]

The root cause seems to be the circuit hire costs. Lets hope the new owners of the Octagon circuits (or whatever they are called this week) will reduce this causing a cascade effect on everything else. Slightly less number of races per day thus building in some slack time (crash time) and reduce the cost to the people who actually generate the revenue..... the racers.

Even if we had 1000 people watching at 10 pounds per head (unlikely at many events), and 100 drivers at 300 per head (example cost of many weekend d//h's), its the racers that are paying the most money.... so why shouldnt they get more of a say in what gets run and when???

[jpc]

My memory isn't great as I was standing in the cold and wet all day but I think the Zetec practise was red-flagged twice. I can only guess that the session was abandoned due to that fact.

[kartingdad]

I don't think it was, but nevertheless, the MST site shows the start and finish time of the Q. session as being 9 minutes only.

Over to you Mr. Green. I see that your online as I write this.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by jpc
My memory isn't great as I was standing in the cold and wet all day but I think the Zetec practise was red-flagged twice. I can only guess that the session was abandoned due to that fact.

That might be key, most organisers reserve the right to cancel a session that is red flagged more than once. But as a principle it doesn't seem right at the start of the day to cancel one session just to allow another to run.

Back to Stephen's point, what did the Clerk say when you spoke to him about it?

[kartingdad]

It was only red flagged once.

Furthermore, as per my previous post, the session started ahead of time, so the running late excuse was a bit lame.

Myself, Medina, JLR,and Donnelly were all trying to get our point across to the CofC, but he refused to listen talked over everyone, and suggested we run the meeting. He was adamant that he wanted all the races to be run, which was a fair point. He refused to entertain my suggestion that we had 2 x 15 minute races instead of 2 x 20 minute races in order to gain back his time. At the time I wasn't sure of the actual times the next session was due out/went out etc, but what I was sure of that we were talking to a man with a 'traffic cop' mentality who would not alter his view and 'lose' the argument in front of his fellow officials.

Incidents like this just drive a rift between officialdom and the payin customer, the competitor. It also sets a precedent for committed drivers to go out in dangerous conditions and risk a £20k car and their life immediately, without the opportunity to find out where the deep water is and how it affects the car. Each lap might be your last, depending on the whim of 'them in charge'.

Please, please, BRSCC boys, try to understand the effort, commitment and personal wealth that goes into getting a car on the grid. Give the competitors the respect and courtesy due to them, after all, you are meant to be in charge.