Marshall <> Driver Comms

Mr.Jingles · 18 Dec 2009, 10:56 (Ref:2601830)

I saw a video recently (naming no track, event or individuals here) where a car left the circuit and spun without damage, but very close to the barrier/tyrewall. Whilst the driver was getting their bearings and looking for a gap in the traffic to re-join a marshall hopped over the barrier, and it looked like they were giving the car a once over where it would have hit the barrier (if it did). Pulling on bits and so forth.

Now in this particular case it looks like the driver spotted them before pulling away, but still - it didn't seem like a great idea (from my drivers perspective). I'd be focused on trying to safely rejoin and wouldn't be expecting men-in-orange to be trackside for me, and with no reason to check my rear view (after all, there's only tyres and steel behind me!) I could easily miss them.

Was this marshall possibly overly keen/released trackside prematurely? Do drivers need to be aware that this can/will happen routinely?

Mr.Jingles · 18 Dec 2009, 10:56 (Ref:2601831)

Also (hence the title) - he was trying to give the driver verbal guidance about traffic etc; however I'm pretty certain the driver wouldn't have been able to hear it with his helmet on + all the racing noise.

Piglet · 18 Dec 2009, 12:36 (Ref:2601863)

TBH, it's a bit of a non debate without any footage. Who knows what was going on...

**Woolley** · 18 Dec 2009, 12:49 (Ref:2601872)

...or whether the driver had signalled for assistance with the broken bits.

Can't comment on the specifics in this case, and even with video footage it's generally inconclusive, but the general advice for marshals is to wait for the dust to settle before getting involved.

Mr.Jingles · 18 Dec 2009, 13:03 (Ref:2601878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

TBH, it's a bit of a non debate without any footage. Who knows what was going on...

Where's your sense of imagination

It's not my footage, so I'll need to check if I can put it up on the web. Sure there must be similar clips online though, it's the general concept of running out to a car thats still trying to get back into the race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

...or whether the driver had signalled for assistance with the broken bits.

Can't comment on the specifics in this case, and even with video footage it's generally inconclusive, but the general advice for marshals is to wait for the dust to settle before getting involved.

Nothing I recall that you can visually see to show he was signaling for help (hand waving, head turning) and nothing visually broken. Agreed that video is a poor judge on this one though.

What I was trying to get at (with this) is something you've touched on - are marshalls issued guidance about dealing with stranded/spun (but otherwise fine and fit to rejoin cars)?

Sparky-steve · 18 Dec 2009, 13:20 (Ref:2601888)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

What I was trying to get at (with this) is something you've touched on - are marshalls issued guidance about dealing with stranded/spun (but otherwise fine and fit to rejoin cars)?

well I'm a newbie marshal but i know not to go out to a car until things have stopped happening and something needs doing.
and if the driver is obviously trying to rejoin. I would stay behind the barrier.
i personally won't go out to a car as you described, no point!!
but every event is different and needs assessing.
subject to terms and conditions

White flag man · 18 Dec 2009, 13:41 (Ref:2601897)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

Where's your sense of imagination

It's not my footage, so I'll need to check if I can put it up on the web. Sure there must be similar clips online though, it's the general concept of running out to a car thats still trying to get back into the race.

Nothing I recall that you can visually see to show he was signaling for help (hand waving, head turning) and nothing visually broken. Agreed that video is a poor judge on this one though.

What I was trying to get at (with this) is something you've touched on - are marshalls issued guidance about dealing with stranded/spun (but otherwise fine and fit to rejoin cars)?

To answer your last point. If a car/driver are fine and fit to rejoin the circuit, then the guildlines are to let them do this by themselves, without intervention.
Unless the marshal saw some damage, which the driver couldn't, that may have put the driver & fellow competitors at risk, if they were to continue, then I think we can conclude that the marshal was being over eager.

Mr.Jingles · 18 Dec 2009, 14:31 (Ref:2601916)

Thats a good point I hadn't thought of - maybe the marshall saw something that looked iffy. Still, pulling on a wheel whilst the driver is looking to pull away..... well, it could cost some fingers? Maybe a hefty slap on the bonnet is the way to go to attract some attention first - who knows?

*Touch wood* it's never happened to me and I hope it never will, but I'd hate to end up hurting someone who is trying to help me. Hence the query.

The guidance we got at Combe was, roughly speaking, signaling vigiously - or if unconcious, not moving at all - when you are stranded/stuck/crashed means you need help. A ta-ta type wave if you are going to be there for a few seconds is a good thing to show that you don't need rescue and can extract yourself from the car/are able to drive off. Don't dawdle more than you need to (to get a gap in the traffic for example) to get out/drive off or the marshalls will assume the worst.

Does that sound right?

I'll try and see if I can get that Video up.

White flag man · 18 Dec 2009, 14:47 (Ref:2601923)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

Still, pulling on a wheel whilst the driver is looking to pull away..... well, it could cost some fingers?

Never a good idea.

Mr J. Only one L in marshal.

Mr.Jingles · 18 Dec 2009, 14:57 (Ref:2601925)

Whoops! my bad (badd?)

Dave Brand · 18 Dec 2009, 19:11 (Ref:2602053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

TBH, it's a bit of a non debate without any footage. Who knows what was going on...

Yes, but had we been able to see the video we would have been able to identify the individual & would have been censured for criticising a fellow marshal.

What was that my old granny used to say about buns & halfpennies?

**Woolley** · 18 Dec 2009, 20:39 (Ref:2602097)

The correct marshal's rule, of course, is that the car will stay there precisely until the moment you reach it, whence it will leave you standing on the edge of the circuit looking like a complete knob...

Big Bob Agg · 18 Dec 2009, 21:37 (Ref:2602131)

Quote:

Originally Posted by White flag man

To answer your last point. If a car/driver are fine and fit to rejoin the circuit, then the guildlines are to let them do this by themselves, without intervention.
Unless the marshal saw some damage, which the driver couldn't, that may have put the driver & fellow competitors at risk, if they were to continue, then I think we can conclude that the marshal was being over eager.

And guildlines are different from guidelines

Steven Humphrey · 18 Dec 2009, 22:20 (Ref:2602154)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

The correct marshal's rule, of course, is that the car will stay there precisely until the moment you reach it, whence it will leave you standing on the edge of the circuit looking like a complete knob...

I was just about to say that! I was at Copse for the Britcar 500 this year when a Porsche stopped at the entrance to Chapel (which we we're also covering). We ran all the way there, me with a bottle for most of the distance, and, right on cue, he drove off the moment we got alongside him! Took me nearly half hour to recover.

I've always been told to let the dust settle/count to ten whenever a car goes off as 9 times out of 10 it will get going again. Different if a car just pulls off-pretty obvious there's a mechanical problem. I'd definately never put my hands anywhere near a wheel while the engine was still running!

Oscar114 · 19 Dec 2009, 08:56 (Ref:2602266)

There is nothing wrong in being prepared to go out (correct gap with bottle in hand) but as others have said always let things settle down before going out.

Can't comment on this exact one and never would comment on anyone's marshalling techniques but I've always been told the above and used it and prevented looking like an idiot on numerous occasions.

Mr.Jingles · 19 Dec 2009, 14:18 (Ref:2602348)

You guys need to get paintball guns (loaded with orange rounds only of course!) then you could splat their screen before the long run to get their attention

Come to think of it, would be great for blue and black flagging too.....

Anyway, thanks for your comments - as I said before, not meaning to pick on anyone (christ knows I give you guys enough 'work' to do... ahem) so no video methinks in hindsight.

JimW · 19 Dec 2009, 17:41 (Ref:2602436)

I always advocate treating drivers like horses or helicopters. Approach from the front and don't go near until you have eye contact. Very few drivers will deliberately run you down.

(Cue comments saying that it is the rear end of both which is more dangerous. And jokes saying that's the end which has the brains.)

Regards

Jim

**Woolley** · 19 Dec 2009, 18:16 (Ref:2602445)

In all the training sessions I've had that you've taken, I've never heard that one, Jim. I shall store it in the memory bank along with a number of other quotes from you that I use.

Sparky-steve · 19 Dec 2009, 19:29 (Ref:2602470)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

The correct marshal's rule, of course, is that the car will stay there precisely until the moment you reach it, whence it will leave you standing on the edge of the circuit looking like a complete knob...

yep been that knob

bravo · 19 Dec 2009, 23:31 (Ref:2602532)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWz-S7CgmbI

Skip to 4:45 and then tell me how far you've got with the bottle by 5:20

Lord Summerisle · 20 Dec 2009, 00:19 (Ref:2602546)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWz-S7CgmbI

Skip to 4:45 and then tell me how far you've got with the bottle by 5:20

What i get from that vid is how difficult it is to see the flag points...

Sparky-steve · 20 Dec 2009, 07:52 (Ref:2602610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWz-S7CgmbI

Skip to 4:45 and then tell me how far you've got with the bottle by 5:20

i would say about zero inches, wouldn't have gone out as you would be able to tell the driver is restarting the car.

**Woolley** · 20 Dec 2009, 18:51 (Ref:2602825)

Yep, spot on. No reason for going anywhere until such time as the driver decides he can't restart it and looks for assistance.

Chris Hobson · 20 Dec 2009, 21:47 (Ref:2602914)

Jim is absolutely right in his advice - always try to get eye contact with the driver as you approach an incident. HOWEVER............

Use the green cross code - STOP, LOOK, LISTEN and only proceed if it is safe so to do - and only if your intervention is absolutely necessary - if the driver can recover the situation on their own, let them, if they can get it to a safe place, let them. But if you need to intervene then do so as safely as possible, preferably as a co-ordinated team, looking after each other. Try to keep the car between you and on-coming traffic and NEVER put yourself in unnecessary danger. Cars can be fairly easily re-built - humans are much more complex and difficult.

Please remember, we prefer live cowards to dead heroes!

Stay safe and have a great 2010

PVDA · 21 Dec 2009, 01:31 (Ref:2603021)

Saw an example earlier this year where the Safety Crew snuck up behind a stalled car to do a snatch & drag to safety but no one went to the driver and the first he knew was when he took off for about 2 metres when the tow strap stopped his forward progress in a hurry

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