New Atlantic Formula

Tenoch · 30 Jul 2005, 19:36 (Ref:1367715)

The New Formula just got released on CCWS.com.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...le.asp?ID=9442

macdaddy · 30 Jul 2005, 19:56 (Ref:1367719)

No more Toyota...

Kicking-back · 30 Jul 2005, 20:01 (Ref:1367725)

New car looks good.

Much more like a proper Formula car.

I assume that the new chassis will be the only one in the series, unlike the current two-class arrangement.

Tim Northcutt · 30 Jul 2005, 21:21 (Ref:1367789)

That has been no secret with Toyota....

We'veknown that for weeks...

Wonder if KK has bought a piece of Swift????

(Just kidding)

This should be a very good support series

StickShift · 30 Jul 2005, 21:58 (Ref:1367813)

Team Australia confirmed that they will run a two car Atlantics team next year.

As well, Sierra-Sierra confirmed that they will return to the new series with a two car team. They last ran in 2004 with Dalziel and Ranger.

According to Jeremy Shaw on Race Director, the winner of the 2006 Championship will receieve a $2,000,000 from Champ Car to be put towards a ride in the Champ Car series in the next season.

With such a lucrative prize purse, I wonder if we will see the likes of Valiante and other past Champ Car hopefuls take a run in the series again.

courageous · 30 Jul 2005, 22:00 (Ref:1367815)

Has anyone said what sort of relative speed they are looking for (compared to CC or other junior series)?

*Just in cas that is misconstrued as a troll - I mean other junior series meaning other than Atlantic.

mabs_nsx · 31 Jul 2005, 02:38 (Ref:1367910)

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickShift

Team Australia confirmed that they will run a two car Atlantics team next year.

What will the team be called, Team Australia or Walker Racing?

Ac. · 31 Jul 2005, 03:16 (Ref:1367915)

Quote:

Originally Posted by courageous

Has anyone said what sort of relative speed they are looking for (compared to CC or other junior series)?

*Just in cas that is misconstrued as a troll - I mean other junior series meaning other than Atlantic.

One of the articles on the CC website indicated the new Cosworth powerplant would be 300hp, with top speeds at approximately 175mph.

StuiE · 31 Jul 2005, 14:04 (Ref:1368238)

Needs more power, still too much of a step between Atlantic and ChampCar IMO...

but other than that, sounds good.

Tim Northcutt · 31 Jul 2005, 14:55 (Ref:1368289)

I love the idea of putting $$$ toward helping the Atlantic Champion move up to Champ Car....

That is the porpose of a support series, IMO....

But I also agree that 300 hp may not be enough to provide the proper transitional step for the competitors....

something in the range of 400-450 would serve that transitional purpose much better....

Snrub · 1 Aug 2005, 00:09 (Ref:1368658)

Perhaps they decided that 300hp was a good number because it would keep the costs down. Also, Cosworth was talking about making performance engines for the street, etc. They're using the Ford 2.3L duratec as the base for the new Atlantics engine, perhaps this will be a varient very similar to what Cosworth will be selling to the public? Perhaps that is how they're hoping to keep the costs between $5-600k. Although I can't help but wonder that if those are the base costs, the real costs for a top team will probably be double.

I agree with the above posts that they should have a little more power. I can't see why they couldn't make an economical turbo 2.3L (or something similar) that would be in the 400hp range. Heck Mazda has introduced a special version of the 2.3L duratec for the Mazdaspeed6 that makes 280hp.

Kicking-back · 1 Aug 2005, 05:50 (Ref:1368733)

21 cars have been ordered already.

Raglanparade · 1 Aug 2005, 05:57 (Ref:1368739)

What they should do is let them put whatever engine they want in it. Given the limited chassis space the teams could only run a few different types of engine, none of which could be too powerful.

The only catch... it would need to be based on a road car engine.

The Snout · 1 Aug 2005, 06:31 (Ref:1368750)

Reading the rules (which isn't easy to follow for a lay man like me), seems that the current car weighs 575kgs. F3 cars weigh about 525kgs and the pictures CC had at the press conference looked a alot like a F3 car.

So IMO if the new car weighs about the same as a F3 car then you have a 10%+ drop in weight and a 20% gain in horsepower. So it may be a lot quicker than we first think.

A F3 car at 525kgs has about 200hp (at least on the Kuhmo F3 site). So to get some perspective a new Swift-Cosworth could look like a F3 car, weigh and handle like a F3 car, but have 50% more power. Pretty quick, even lacking the brute horses that 400+ provides.

Are swift in F3 ? Cause maybe the reason the car looks this way is because swift plan to sell the design in F3 as well with some slight changes to meet the rules. So this is the biggest engine it would/could take with that in mind.

Pete Fenelon · 1 Aug 2005, 13:33 (Ref:1369160)

Don't just look at horsepower, look at power-to-weight and where the car's likely to be racing. Old-style Atlantics knew they were going to spend a fair portion of their time on ovals; with the way CCWS is going what's needed in the short/medium term is a good street and road course car and 300bhp in a light chassis is probably going to have all the acceleration and top speed they can use on the vast majority of circuits. It should be quicker than F3 but slower than GP2 (which if you think of where Atlantic sat on the European stage is about right).

Remember also that Atlantics weren't always the step directly below ChampCar - from the mid 80s to mid 90s there was the American Racing Series/Indy Lights, which was pretty much a US take on F3000 hardware with big Buick engines. This revision to Atlantics moves them up a little and brings them somewhat closer to Champcar.

Also, I doubt the next CCWS formula will have the same sort of horsepower numbers (I'd expect it to be around 600) - you have to think ahead -- the general trend is for junior formulae to be getting more powerful and senior ones to step down a bit to meet them!

Just as a data point, at Miami in '03, Allmendinger's Atlantic qually time was faster than some of the rag, tag and bobtail in Coyne's Champcars.

I think the new car looks great and the spec sounds sensible. In fact I'd much rather have that than our current F3.

Snrub · 1 Aug 2005, 17:58 (Ref:1369456)

On some of the short and small courses Atlantics are pretty close to CC.

KK has suggested that the next gen CC cars will be smaller, lighter, quicker and have more power. If they went down to 600hp GP2 cars would probably be faster.

jjspierx · 1 Aug 2005, 20:45 (Ref:1369624)

I don't think 300hp is too bad a number to shoot for. The think that makes feeder series so much fun to watch is that the racing is closer, and generally the more HP you have the further the cars get spaced out. However GP2 seems to have an amazing spec package(besides their awful reliability). Most of their aero-grip comes from the undertray, not the rear-wing, so there is very little turbulance behind the cars which allows them to race very close to each other(unlike F1) and not lose grip. They race at LEAST as close as the Atlantics, with over twice the horsepower. To be honest, right now I'm enjoying watching the GP2 races more than any other series right now.

Pete Fenelon · 2 Aug 2005, 10:13 (Ref:1369970)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snrub

On some of the short and small courses Atlantics are pretty close to CC.

KK has suggested that the next gen CC cars will be smaller, lighter, quicker and have more power. If they went down to 600hp GP2 cars would probably be faster.

Doesn't matter though, does it, as GP2 and Champcars will never race each other (except maybe years later in BOSS or something!)

Champcars on the current generation of street courses are a bit too big, I reckon, and that's a contributory factor to the amount of contact with walls and/or other cars, I reckon! They're probably my favourite single seaters as far as looks are concerned but they're gargantuan if you look at them next to (say) F3000s or IRL cars - KK is absolutely right in going for something a bit nimbler for the next generation. (What happened to the rumours that the Superfund car was going to be the next-gen Champcar - that looked to be about right!)

As I said, Allmendinger wouldn't've been last on the Miami Champcar grid in '03 on the basis of his Atlantic time - although he's quite special and some of the back end of the Champcar grid isn't.

Pete Fenelon · 2 Aug 2005, 10:16 (Ref:1369973)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjspierx

I don't think 300hp is too bad a number to shoot for. The think that makes feeder series so much fun to watch is that the racing is closer, and generally the more HP you have the further the cars get spaced out. However GP2 seems to have an amazing spec package ... To be honest, right now I'm enjoying watching the GP2 races more than any other series right now.

What I've seen of GP2 on telly makes me think it's nearly as good as two-litre F2 was (and that's saying something!) They're real racing cars, unlike the last couple of generations of F3000s which have been underpowered F1 lookalikes that can't get out of their own way because they're so underpowered!

They've got the mechanical grip/aero grip/drag/power balance just about right, it looks like the car's "chuckable" (so you can experiment and improvise) but predictable.

Kicking-back · 2 Aug 2005, 10:18 (Ref:1369975)

I actually think ChampCar would be making a clever move if they got another batch of GP2 chassis made as the new ChampCar, albeit powered by Cosworth engines....

Pete Fenelon · 2 Aug 2005, 13:35 (Ref:1370145)

Nice idea, KB, but I reckon Renault probably own all the IPR in the car.

Now, A1GP Lolas on the other hand..... with the right sort of rubber I reckon they'd be about as quick as GP2 cars...

Andrew Kitson · 2 Aug 2005, 13:43 (Ref:1370148)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Fenelon

What I've seen of GP2 on telly makes me think it's nearly as good as two-litre F2 was (and that's saying something!) They're real racing cars, unlike the last couple of generations of F3000s which have been underpowered F1 lookalikes that can't get out of their own way because they're so underpowered!

They've got the mechanical grip/aero grip/drag/power balance just about right, it looks like the car's "chuckable" (so you can experiment and improvise) but predictable.

I agree with you Pete, so nice to see oversteer and the necessary skills to control it back in fashion. It's why we fell in love with the sport in the first place.

Pete Fenelon · 2 Aug 2005, 14:22 (Ref:1370181)

Very true. Nobody ever says "Cor.... that Alain Prost. LOVED a neutral-to-understeering car... classically perfect lines through the corners...!" Nah, it's "Ronnie.... oh god, he loved it, tail hanging out, 45 degrees through Woodcote with bags of opposite lock on, controlling it on the throttle!"

Snrub · 2 Aug 2005, 16:29 (Ref:1370260)

I don't think that GP2 is a better spec series than CC, but they do race on better tracks. In fairness, comparing Edmonton to the Hungarian GP2 race (first and only I've watched so far - I didn't know they were on Speed), I would have to give the nod to the Edmonton race. CC just needs more consistancy from RuSport, PKV and other teams and it will really shine.

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