Lydden Results and comments...

[BertMk2]

A great meeting today, superb racing all day and everything ran smoothly and to time even with a few incidents. Congratulations to the organisers for a well run event and good work by the marshals too!

Dermot wins again although I think Manning could have run him close if it wasn't for the spin in the supercar final, Gibson certainly pushed Carnegie hard inthe superfinal too.

Rogers took a well deserved supermodified win, there were some really quick guys out there in the supermods today - wheatley, turpin, dresser and bellerby all caught the eye. A good showing from Gary Dixon too in the modified astra.

Stock hatch eventually won by Adrian Horsley at the 3rd attempt in the A final - glad to see the drivers were all ok after those incidents.

Not sure who won the Juniors or the Minicross - can't have been paying attention at the vital moment!

Bucko - nifty handbrake turn and an interesting line off Chessons at one point

More of the same please

[Rod Birley]

Did the stock hatch result stand? Well done to Dave Ward, first 2 wheel drive car in the super final.

[Matti Alamaki]

Originally posted by Rod Birley
Did the stock hatch result stand?

Why, was somebody protested against?

[daveccm]

Originally posted by Matti Alamaki
Why, was somebody protested against?

This was my first rallycross meeting for about five years and after watching Adrian Horsley T-bone the guy into the tyres I wondered what you had to do in this sport to get disqualified. I thought it was so clear cut that he wouldn't be allowed to go in the re-run but apparently not.

I can well understand that on the loose it's very easy to make contact but whereas in all the other cases during the day the drivers backed off, Horsely kept his foot in, driving him into the tyres. I assume Horsley was protested.

[Cryos]

The biggest problem with rallycross at the moment is the lack of Endorsements, especialy in the irish.

From that discription it could be concidered a bad driving conduct, but as i said its not enforced like it should be.

There were certain competitors in the last 3 irish events that should of been handed some endorsements however got off lightly with a telling off.

(woot 300th post )

[Matti Alamaki]

Originally posted by daveccm
This was my first rallycross meeting for about five years and after watching Adrian Horsley T-bone the guy into the tyres I wondered what you had to do in this sport to get disqualified. I thought it was so clear cut that he wouldn't be allowed to go in the re-run but apparently not.

I can well understand that on the loose it's very easy to make contact but whereas in all the other cases during the day the drivers backed off, Horsely kept his foot in, driving him into the tyres. I assume Horsley was protested.

Yes that doesn't surprise me at all, funny he got away with something similar not so long ago. The driver on the receiving end went home with a very badly damaged stock hatch. In fact, that particular stock hatch hasn't been out since.

[Cryos]

Yes that doesn't surprise me at all, funny he got away with something similar not so long ago. The driver on the receiving end went home with a very badly damaged stock hatch. In fact, that particular stock hatch hasn't been out since.

I hope whomever launched the protest (fair play to ya) will get satisfaction and horsely slapped with an endorsement. Rules are rules, no exeptions to your carnegies or dorans either!

(http://www.mobonline.net/testing/aboutme.html i wonder who that is )

[daveccm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rxie
[B]I hope whomever launched the protest (fair play to ya) will get satisfaction and horsely slapped with an endorsement. Rules are rules, no exeptions to your carnegies or dorans either!

I don't think it right for me to criticise another form of motorsport I've been out of touch with but what does an endorsement do? I can understand why a black flag can't be shown during a race but in this case, the race had to be re run after some delay. Not only that but it happened in front of the steward's(?) tower. I don't think the guy on the receiving end would have been too pleased seeing the perpetrator, not only allowed to continue, but actually win it. So would the win stand? Even if it doesn't, the guy has still got a hefty repair bill. Surely instant disqualification wouldn't cause any problems. Otherwise a competitor can just punt off whoever he likes - and that's called stock car racing.

[Cryos]

An endorsement is like penalty points on your licence (presuming that your in either ireland or the uk) clock up a certain amount of them and your disqualified from driving.

looking at my licence if you get 3 endorsements you loose your licence, and that means ALL of your licences are revoked as far as i know

The Major problem with black flags and rallycross is, most heats only last for 3/4/5 laps , if the person gets the black flag at the start of lap 5 the competitor can finish the race, the problem with deciding a black flag is that the Stewards have to radio the marshals/startline man and tell him to put out the flag. its all time which is the problem.

Also another problem being with stewards is Bias'ism, for example michael coyne was racing a few years ago in his 1600 fiesta, he was involved with an accident with some guy in a 2litre nova who turned across michael. However instead of the guy in the Nova getting the endorsement michael's licence was not handed back to him he had to wait a week for his licence to return because the offcials would not return his licence to him (which under the rules if the driver is launching a protest his competition licence must be returned to him, if the protest is failed the driver has to bring the licence to the nearest C.O.C as far as i remember).

Another example is Laurence gibson and dermot carnegies shunt in mondello last year on the British/irish event where laurence helped dermot into the gravel trap at dunlop, however was alowed to continue with what only could be described as half a car, with no black flags or an endorsement. Essentialy he got away with an offence, only for him opening his mought to will gollop and saying it was intentional and will gollop (fair play to the man) told the C.O.C this and gibson was disqualified (however i dont think he was handed an endorsement?)

The people who enforce rules in racing need to be called into question, rules are there to protect drivers and keep them safe, not just to fill pages on the Blue/Green MSA / MI yearbooks.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Rod Birley
Did the stock hatch result stand?

As far as I know the result stands, there was a lot of contact out there in stock hatch - mostly caused by 2 drivers but how much of that was intentional I don't know. The stock hatch A final was certainly eventful wasn't it? By the third start it was looking a little sparse too.

[Roundy Mooney]

I'm with Daveccm on this one. If a penalty is to be effective it must be in on the day. Endorsing a license is fine as a last resort, to put the persistent offender of the track but it doesn’t change the most important thing the result!!

If you are in a heat and intentionally hit another competitor you should be disqualified from that heat. Now you only have two heats to count you will think twice before doing it again otherwise you aren’t going to make a final. In the final a intentional hit should be a immediate disqualification. To me not making a final or being disqualified from one and receiving no points in the championship is a far greater price to pay than the endorsement.

One other worrying move I have noticed in all classes is when a driver may be unintentionally hits another driver throwing them offline. But then proceeds to keep the shoe in and ends up rolling the other car.


Bertmk2 I must also bow to your greater knowledge in predicting the right result for the supercars. Now if they only opened up a Tote down in Mondello for the next one I could make a couple of quid of your prophecies.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Roundy Mooney
Bertmk2 I must also bow to your greater knowledge in predicting the right result for the supercars. Now if they only opened up a Tote down in Mondello for the next one I could make a couple of quid of your prophecies.

Cheers! Though I'd save your cash if I were you, if I got it right for Lydden I'll get it so so wrong for Mondello - it's a double header too so I've got twice the opportunity to get it wrong

Didn't do too well in getting the modifieds predictions right though did I? The modifieds were superb all day, loads of really good racing with a whole bunch of cars on the pace. Dressers Lotus is incredible off the line and looks the mutts nuts, I was really impressed with that yesterday.

As usual the Nova/Corsa posse were all flying as were Wheatley and Howlin - although when the track was damp the rear wheel drive boys really did seem to suffer, Howlin, Sellar and Harbour all struggling for traction, Dresser seemed to have less of a problem.

[RoyG]

Originally posted by Roundy Mooney
One other worrying move I have noticed in all classes is when a driver may be unintentionally hits another driver throwing them offline. But then proceeds to keep the shoe in and ends up rolling the other car.

Usually when I go to spectate I very soon start thinking, "God, I wish I was out there". Yetserday the thought was, "Thank God I'm this side of the fence!"

There are just too many guys out there whose motto is the same as Matti A. - "If in doubt keep the shoe in!". In my book they are causing an avoidable accident. But once again the officials of the meeting fail to do anything about it. I'd like a quid for every time I've heard the spiel at drivers briefing about Rallycross being a non-contact sport, but very, very rarely is avoidable contact penalised.

Until measures are taken to apply penalties more effectively, Rallycross will continue to look more like banger racing every meeting.

UDB - I'll PM you with some more detailed thoughts.

[Roundy Mooney]

Roy I seem to remember watching a video with you good self leading a race. You had a "TIFF" with someone who carried out the above mentioned maneuver on you. I remember thinking at the time that it was at least very unsporting and at worst very dangerous.

[RoyG]

RM -

The incident you mention (thanks for reminding me!!) was in February 2001, so the problem is not new!

I'm pretty sure that we would have heard the "non-contact" pep talk at the beginning of that meeting, just like every event since!!

But the b*ggers still usually get away with it - nearly 4 years on. I begin to despair....

[Allen Mead]

It was a very good day, but as people have said, there was a fair bit of contact and I'm suprised that Horsley wasn't disqualified for that 'nudge'. I can't remember the guy's name but there was also that fella in the red 106 that had his day ended on the same strip of off road.

[moyzer]

Good days racing!! Where did Doran find the extra speed from in the superfinal?!! Seemed like he couldn't get it round the corners in the heats.

Mundy's car looked like an absolute rocket too!

I was on the downhill section of Harey Hill after Mr Horsley's T-Boning incident. He knew he'd done something wrong as he asked the marshall something, to which the reply from the marshall was: "you'll have to argue it afterwards".

My driver of the day was possibly Dave Ward. He made some exellent overtaking manouvres in some impossible situations!!

The rain spiced it up a bit too. Plenty of understeer out of the hairpin.

Great day.........

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by moyzer
Where did Doran find the extra speed from in the superfinal?!! Seemed like he couldn't get it round the corners in the heats.

Not 100% sure about this but I'm sure I heard somebody say something about problems with the diff? There might have been a problem with power transfer to one set of wheels which would explain the handling problems.

Did both rolls in the stock hatch A final involve Horsley or was it just the second one? He could have lifted - that would have reduced the size of the accident.

Driver of the day - difficult one, Ward was impressive, Gibson was flying in his hastliy thrown together 6R4 and Carnegie was on good form too. Tricky.

Really impressed with the way McCann threw the Impreza into the elbow too, looked like he was closer to the rest of the pack than easter as well which was good to see. Boaks Audi was going quite well until he lost the rear spoiler - after that it was just too tail happy!

Does anybody know why McCluskey and Gooding didn't show? I guess Goodings car wasn't ready but McCluskey?

[bigted]

Gooding blew the engine in the sprint on saturday

[bucko]

the hand brake turn was the only thing i done good all day as for the line at chesson's... it just goes to show how dangerous using a phone is while driving !!!
did carnegie jump start on the super final and why was he pushed back into postion instead of going to the back of the grid , also why can stock hatch have a ,c , d & a finals and super modified only have 2 finals when there was enough cars for a "c" final and enough time .i did not see the stock hatch incidents but there was a lot of grumbling in the pits saying that horsley should be penalised ,,dont the rules state if you caused a red flag incedent you where not allowed to restart !!!! hats off to you marshalls slendid job and the meeting run smoothly

[BertMk2]

I don't think Carnegie jumped - I think there wa a problem with the jump start beams for the 4th row of the grid (Gnomex should be able to clear this up) I think the orange light came on for the 4th row (which was empty) and Carnegie went then. Once row 4 was disconnected they got away ok.

Stock hatch only got 2 finals yesterday, it just seemed like more with the re-runs. I was surprised there wasn't a modified C final though, there were plenty of cars and plenty of time so I'm not sure what the reasoning was.

[Roundy Mooney]

I wonder if Gibson had say, rolled Gollop in the same way would action have been taken ? Are the other class treated in a different way ?
I don't personnally have a strong view on this but it seems a resonable question to ask!!

[Upside Down Bug]

Hi Guys

From the clerks perspective, you'll all appreciate that I cannot comment in a public forum about the various incidents during the day. All I can say is that five separate drivers received formal penalties during the day, ranging from verbal warnings through to exclusions.

I won't go into the conceptual argument of the nature of penalties and how they act as a deterant. However, you will appreciate that all clerks in the UK are bound by the rules contained within the blue book (from toruing cars to the smallest club meeting). 'Endorsments' is now a bit of a misnomer as the offence defines whether it is recorded on the drivers license, and the size of the penalty defines the number of points recorded. Eg, 2 points for a written reprimind or 4 points for exclusion from race etc. 12 points in a rolling 12 month period means an automatic 3 month ban. There is no discrection for clerks over this.

As for the number of finals. The championship regs define the number of the finals, and they state only a maximum of A+B finals for each class, provided at least 4 cars have qualified.

The jump start in superfinal, BertMk2 is correct, there was some technical fault with row four, probably caused by either water, or dirt from the adjacent loose section.

RoyG got your PM, will answer.

UDB

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by bigted
Gooding blew the engine in the sprint on saturday

Ouch! That's got to hurt - that was a spanking new engine too.

I saw Doran had the scrutineering sticker from the sprint on his car - were there many other rallycrossers sprinting?

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Upside Down Bug
As for the number of finals. The championship regs define the number of the finals, and they state only a maximum of A+B finals for each class, provided at least 4 cars have qualified.

Ah. That explains that then Shame though as there were plenty of cars still running that could have had another play (somewhat suprisingly - reliability was generally very good yesterday).

As for the penalties, I'm not surprised there was some wrist slapping but there wasn't all that much contact going on was there? I can only think of 2 drivers who were a bit OTT and they were both in stock hatch - although I didn't see some of the minicross heats so I guess that could be where the exclusion came from (the exclusion was only from one heat though according to the results).