Why don't teams get off their backsides?

[Morris Dancer]

It's always struck me as strange that motorsport at the Entry, Development and Feeder category levels requires drivers to pay teams for their rides.

Why don't the teams find commercial backers to fund their racing? Then they'd be able to pick the best drivers available, instead of having to accept the drivers with money to buy drives irrespective of their talent.

A top team can only do so much for a driver who lacks the basic talent to get near the front of the pack - there's no shortage of examples! - and it only makes the team look bad to prospective drivers in subsequent years.

Teams are also have the infrastructure and staff to go sponsor-hunting, unlike drivers, who have to beg, borrow, but hopefully not steal from anyone they can convince to support their climb up the motor sport ladder.

Why don't the teams get off their backsides, for their own good as much as the sport's?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

It's always struck me as strange that motorsport at the Entry, Development and Feeder category levels requires drivers to pay teams for their rides.

Why don't the teams find commercial backers to fund their racing? Then they'd be able to pick the best drivers available, instead of having to accept the drivers with money to buy drives irrespective of their talent.

A top team can only do so much for a driver who lacks the basic talent to get near the front of the pack - there's no shortage of examples! - and it only makes the team look bad to prospective drivers in subsequent years.

Teams are also have the infrastructure and staff to go sponsor-hunting, unlike drivers, who have to beg, borrow, but hopefully not steal from anyone they can convince to support their climb up the motor sport ladder.

Why don't the teams get off their backsides, for their own good as much as the sport's?

What makes you think it is any easier for a team to find sponsorship. Firstly all feeder, development entry level motorsport are never commercially viable.. Ie costs are more than commercial returns. Most sponsorship at this level is in the form of patronage from family buissness or buisness contacts. One way to try and reduce some of these costs would be to do without the teams altogether. Yongsters having to run their own cars would mean them learning more, prove their dedication and cut all those overheads such as labor costs. Trouble is most drivers today are rich kids who want it all on a plate.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by Mak

What makes you think it is any easier for a team to find sponsorship. Firstly all feeder, development entry level motorsport are never commercially viable.. Ie costs are more than commercial returns. Most sponsorship at this level is in the form of patronage from family buissness or buisness contacts. One way to try and reduce some of these costs would be to do without the teams altogether. Yongsters having to run their own cars would mean them learning more, prove their dedication and cut all those overheads such as labor costs. Trouble is most drivers today are rich kids who want it all on a plate.

As I said in my original post, the teams' infrastructure and staff make it easier. They're existing entities with a track record to prove their worth to potential sponsors, unlike youngsters who claim to be the next Michael Schumacher after a year or two of success in karting.

The commercial viability of junior formulas is a valid issue, but it's separate from this thread's focus on the teams' role.

Eliminating 'prefessional' teams in FF or any other formula is as unworkable as a 'salary cap'.

A couple of examples of successful sponsored FF teams are the Duckhams Van Diemens that dominated FF in the 1980s, and going back even further to the 1970s the Australian Grace Bros. team that dominated FF as well as Australian National Formula 2 (it also had drivers in F5000 and sports sedans).

It's been done before - why not again?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

As I said in my original post, the teams' infrastructure and staff make it easier. They're existing entities with a track record to prove their worth to potential sponsors, unlike youngsters who claim to be the next Michael Schumacher after a year or two of success in karting.

The commercial viability of junior formulas is a valid issue, but it's separate from this thread's focus on the teams' role.

Eliminating 'prefessional' teams in FF or any other formula is as unworkable as a 'salary cap'.

A couple of examples of successful sponsored FF teams are the Duckhams Van Diemens that dominated FF in the 1980s, and going back even further to the 1970s the Australian Grace Bros. team that dominated FF as well as Australian National Formula 2 (it also had drivers in F5000 and sports sedans).

It's been done before - why not again?

The successful Duckhams sponsorship that you mention was proped up by Van Dieman and the cars and spare parts they sold. The actual sponsorship was a very small amount of the budget and only went on one cars. The other drivers in the works teams were paying mostly full budgets. Swift had Texco sponsorship and again it was only a small amount towards the budget but required drivers to commit full car coverage to them. Hence patronage required as no space for commercial sponsors. All is not always as it seems..

If teams in these lower formula were to commit a person to marketing all it would do would increase budget further, and for very little chance of return... Not commercially viable sderies..

Did not say banning teams just that it is possible to run successfully as a privateer at this level to reduce costs. Still need to be wealthy though to pay for the operational cost.

[lager]

poor old Morris dancer, the ozzie sun must have gone to his head, dont you think the teams would raise funding if it was possible !

Whilst F1 sucks every penny out of the motorsport world, it is only thanks to the junior teams who try and run a good program on a small amount of cash. How many rich junior team owners do you see.

All the good teams do actually part subsidise quick drivers as winning is all that matters at the end of the day.

Put another shrimp on the barby mate and leave running teams to the professionals not dreamers.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by Mak

The successful Duckhams sponsorship that you mention was proped up by Van Dieman and the cars and spare parts they sold. The actual sponsorship was a very small amount of the budget and only went on one cars. The other drivers in the works teams were paying mostly full budgets. Swift had Texco sponsorship and again it was only a small amount towards the budget but required drivers to commit full car coverage to them. Hence patronage required as no space for commercial sponsors. All is not always as it seems..

If teams in these lower formula were to commit a person to marketing all it would do would increase budget further, and for very little chance of return... Not commercially viable sderies..

Did not say banning teams just that it is possible to run successfully as a privateer at this level to reduce costs. Still need to be wealthy though to pay for the operational cost.

It sounds like the Duckhams deal wasn't very kind to the drivers, but they had the same problem as today's up-and-coming youngsters: they were competing in a series that had little or no marketing value.

That was because back then mainstream media coverage - ie. free to air TV and daily newspapers - was so restricted. These days the Internet (especially online streaming) is rapidly becoming a viable alternative, and probably will replace TV and newspapers eventually.

There's ample corporate marketing money for action sports, and junior openwheel racing certainly falls into that category - usually more than F1 (Valencia excepted!). If junior openwheel motorsport is 'unmarketable' then the series organisers should get off their backsides and take their product to the world.

That might encourage the teams might get off their backsides too!

[tux1234]

The reason why teams dont go out and find sponsorship is because there isnt any! Plus many drivers who have big deals have managers/agents who have contacts, time and resources to find sponsorships.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by lager

poor old Morris dancer, the ozzie sun must have gone to his head, dont you think the teams would raise funding if it was possible !

Whilst F1 sucks every penny out of the motorsport world, it is only thanks to the junior teams who try and run a good program on a small amount of cash. How many rich junior team owners do you see.

All the good teams do actually part subsidise quick drivers as winning is all that matters at the end of the day.

Put another shrimp on the barby mate and leave running teams to the professionals not dreamers.

Mate, I dunno where you're from but it sounds like the freezing cold has affected your grey matter!

There's nothing wrong with junior openwheel motor racing that some decent marketing of the various series wouldn't fix (see my post, below).

From my 30+ years observing motor racing at close quarters, most junior level teams are run by mechanics or engineers with little or no expertise or interest in marketing.

If they were competing in an arena that had a worldwide viewing audience (ie. via Internet live streaming) they might appreciate the value of putting some effort into marketing themselves to the corporate world.

It's 'neg heads' like you who refuse to see the possibility of things being better than they are.

Oh, and despite what Paul Hogan said in his TV commercial all those years ago, shrimps are called prawns here. There's no worse Australian insult than telling someone "Don't come the raw prawn with me!" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=raw%20prawn)

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by tux1234

The reason why teams dont go out and find sponsorship is because there isnt any! Plus many drivers who have big deals have managers/agents who have contacts, time and resources to find sponsorships.

There isn't a lot of corporate money for any venture that isn't commercially attractive - A1GP and SuperLeague Formula were created by people with no understanding of the public perception of what motor racing is about - but most junior openwheel formulas have a lot to offer providing they can show it to the public via Internet live streaming if TV coverage isn't an option.

Some drivers may have big deals with managers/agents etc., but many more who are equally or more talented don't!

[medler]

Most teams would love to get a sponsor and the ones I've worked for have tried to attract team sponsors, but the most they've ever got is goods and services, but never the serious money you'd need to supply a free drive.

Unless the team gets mainstream coverage sponsors can get a better deal else where and the increase in media outlets makes the problem worse not better as they are all fighting for a slice of the cake.

Also most of these teams in lower formulas, don't employ loads of people, just the minimum to get the cars on the circuit and somebody to make sure the team have flights, hotels and get paid.

[Richy_Rich]

Aren't most F1 drivers expected to bring sponsorship with them?

[50-SIX]

In the lower Formulas you will find that teams will usually subsidise (or run at cost or lower) a quick driver they want in their team. This is usually funded by one or two other fully paying drivers.

It depends on how low down the ranks you are looking, but I can't see many FF/FR teams having the resources to allocate to negotiating corporate sponsorship deals.

I think the best answer would be Increased entry fees for each of the lower c'ships, with the extra fees going in to a pool to fund the champions next step up the ladder with a top team. It definately should be the c'ship's responsibilty (along with the MSA) to make progression for the most talented (but underfunded) drivers possible. I know I would have been willing to fork out an extra £5k if it meant a chance of winning a free season's racing in the next step up the ladder.

Things are improving though. The Racing Steps Foundation, for example, is a superb foundation which is allowing talented drivers that would otherwise be on the sidelines, to compete and progress with quality teams. I think this has been a major step forward for UK motorsport and gives hope that talent can still rise to the top without being from a massively privileged background.

Lets not forget, however, that anyone that manages to compete in motorsport at a young age is from a privilaged background in comparison to the majority of the population. The closest most youngsters who dream of being an F1 driver get to racing is the local indoor Kart track. The best driver in the world is probably some paperboy in Moss Side.

[duke_toaster]

One thing that would probably help is to have a significant reduction in the number of single seater formulae, my radical proposal is that there would be a three tier cake before F1 - one entry formula (spaceframe bike engined 1000cc slick and wing cars), one development formula (time to give F3 the changes it needs), and one feeder formula to slot in below F1. While this won't happen as the willpower in the Place de la Concorde isn't there, it would enable better promotion of junior motor racing, and stop some of these atrocious grids that we get. Obviously there would be "less motor racing" - say just a British Formula Junior and British F3 for those on "the career ladder", but less can be more - apart from the fact there will be mergers, there will also be economies of scale cutting costs.

[F1 Prospects]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

There isn't a lot of corporate money for any venture that isn't commercially attractive - A1GP and SuperLeague Formula were created by people with no understanding of the public perception of what motor racing is about - but most junior openwheel formulas have a lot to offer providing they can show it to the public via Internet live streaming if TV coverage isn't an option.

This is something that the various series woefully misunderstand. The problem with streaming is how to set it up so that it can at least recoup its costs since ideally you would want to piggy back off the TV infrastructure already set up at each race for the headlining series but these people must be paid for services rendered.

I personally think that the best way to do it would be to have something I hypothetically call an "F1 Prospects Video Passport" with two levels. Basic gives access to highlights from the races after it is run. Deluxe gives access to live streams to a number of junior series, the more you choose the higher the price.

The problem of course is getting people like Renault, DTM, FOTA, and GP2/3 to agree to it. But I think there is an apetitite for these series that can certainly be catered to and built upon.

As for why the teams don't get commercial sponsorship others have already made valid points. From my experience the vast majority of the teams are bankrolled by somebody who loves motorsport and so is willing to carry a loss as long as he/she can offset it elsewhere in their business. But the teams do, as somebody pointed out often have drivers with more money than talent subsidize a driver with less cash but more speed but that can only go so far. While teams do have the infrastructure to find commercial sponsors and actively do so, potential sponsors want to know who is driving for them and what results that they can realistically expect which sometimes leads to a chicken and egg scenario.

The future in my opinion is for drivers to move away from the typical sponsorship packages and towards more flexible commercial arrangements with potential backers. You can see a bit of what I am talking about with what the Grand Prix Shootout propose on their website.

Unfortunately there will always be deserving drivers who will be on the sidelines while others race that shouldn't. That will never change. But at the same time there has to be more thinking outside the box on the driver side of things in order to change the status quo. Organizations like Racing Steps are fantastic and hopefully we will see more of them in the future. If anybody has any more ideas about any of this please let me know as that is what F1 Prospects is all about.

Cheers.

[bothfeetin]

Mark,
agreed but not agreed! Trying to get into live streaming is now s much easier than say 5 yrs ago when we had all the set up, bandwidth etc - but one link missing - that of the series to agree and that of the tracks (mainly in the USA) to allow this to be happen.

The series wanted money for their "rights"; the track wanted the same; Bernie gave a cold shoulder and wanted to sell his "rights". So, nothing happened, just small bit and pieces on tv! Same basically today - if organizers and tracks don't want it - you ain't get it! And especially in Montreal at the F1 the hurdles to get even some restricted rights were so overwhelmingly hard to get!

Next on my list - the "idea" of teams having sponsors; giving the rides away to talented drivers. It worked but never worked the way it should as kids are being controlled by their families and the families interfere constant, lie constant to the teams, cheat if they can find a better deal and after all - teams sit there and look stupid! Rightfully so I might add as the logic of this F1 fantasy is based on pushing, shuffling and betrays to get as fast to the top and reckless behaviour is on today's menu! How else can they go to the top - they have only a short window of opportunity - and if they are with Red Cow - they have to look more over their shoulder these days than Caesar did in March.

This is not so you say? Reality is that even if teams have a sponsor for their drivers - nothing can be guaranteed for and to the sponsor's benefits unless the driver signs, with approval of his clan, a 5 to 10 year agreement with a ROI scheme. And that will only happen once in a while!

Congrat's to your unrelenting optimism! And I mean it sincerely!

[F1 Prospects]

The technology for streaming races is there now and it is quite economical but getting organizeers to buy in is always a problem. There has to be some sort of payoff to them in order for them to go ahead with streaming. Personally I feel that Bruno Michel and Renault for example would see how it would help increase the interest in their respective series but the case has yet to be made to them.

As for parents and race car drivers, as far as I am concerned if a driver is serious about their career they should get professional management or at the very least a non-relative running things as soon as they leave karts. It will be expensive but it is an investment.

As for my enthusiasm, I have been following F1 and open wheel racing for over 30 years and my enthusiasm goes up and down at times. The politics can get to be frustrating and when Schumacher dominated I tuned out for awhile but racing is like a drug and you never really give it up. All I am trying to do is provide some positive support to younger drivers as well as perhaps ask the uncomfortable questions when neccessary. It's all part of the fun but at the end of the day, it's just racing....

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Mak

What makes you think it is any easier for a team to find sponsorship. Firstly all feeder, development entry level motorsport are never commercially viable.. Ie costs are more than commercial returns. .

I worked for a Company that sponsored an F3 team (as a car dealership we lent them road cars in return for our logo on the rear wing etc) the commercial return was zero. As a staff incentive it was useful, free tickets etc but the issue is, unless you sponsor/are involved with F1/WRC nobody is interested.
The "road to F1" doesn't attract sponsors because "the road to F1" doesn't attract spectators/customers. Taking British F3 as an example if the series were to offer free entry (like World Series by Renault) more people would turn up =more potential prospects for commercial sposors = more sponsorship. If 20K spectators were guarenteed at every meeting the sponsors could agree to cover the entrance fee in return for the details of those attending (as Renault do).

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I worked for a Company that sponsored an F3 team (as a car dealership we lent them road cars in return for our logo on the rear wing etc) the commercial return was zero. As a staff incentive it was useful, free tickets etc but the issue is, unless you sponsor/are involved with F1/WRC nobody is interested.
The "road to F1" doesn't attract sponsors because "the road to F1" doesn't attract spectators/customers. Taking British F3 as an example if the series were to offer free entry (like World Series by Renault) more people would turn up =more potential prospects for commercial sposors = more sponsorship. If 20K spectators were guarenteed at every meeting the sponsors could agree to cover the entrance fee in return for the details of those attending (as Renault do).

With that simplistic approach to 'sponsorship', no wonder the return was "zero"!

It takes more than putting your sticker on a racing car to get punters rolling in through the door.

Sure, if your events are televised you can expect some coverage (providing your car achieves at least podium results), but like any marketing exercise motorsport requires an active campaign to ensure results.

That means generating your own publicity in the media (either specialist or mainstream, depending on your target market) as well as other initiatives like customer competitions and staff incentives (with free tickets/hospitality, test day 'hot laps' as prizes), in store displays, personal appearances, etc.

It all costs money, as does every other form of marketing.

Putting your sign on the car is just the tip of the iceberg.

[medler]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

With that simplistic approach to 'sponsorship', no wonder the return was "zero"!

It takes more than putting your sticker on a racing car to get punters rolling in through the door.

Sure, if your events are televised you can expect some coverage (providing your car achieves at least podium results), but like any marketing exercise motorsport requires an active campaign to ensure results.

That means generating your own publicity in the media (either specialist or mainstream, depending on your target market) as well as other initiatives like customer competitions and staff incentives (with free tickets/hospitality, test day 'hot laps' as prizes), in store displays, personal appearances, etc.

It all costs money, as does every other form of marketing.

Putting your sign on the car is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think you're the one with the simplistic view on the subject.

Having worked for various teams, all have tried to raise sponsorship money, not just by putting a sticker on the car, but by trying some of the things you suggested.
Cars on display at customers premises, And events where potential sponsors could come and see the car and meet the drivers both at the circuit and events away from the circuit nearer the sponsors location and with full hospitality thrown in. We offered sponsors to be our guests at the circuit and to come to the Workshop, but most teams workshops are only a very tidy industrial unit, not like an F1 factory.
But test hot laps are difficult with single seaters and tests days are just that days to test the cars and drivers and as many series limit them each one has to be used as such. But we've still had sponsors along for test days and they've loved it as they can get closer to the action.

And yes sometimes this has raised money for the teams, but never enough to make a great difference to the running of a team or to allow the to even subsidise, let alone, pay for a drive.

However these are a limited amount of sponsors, they have to have the money and be complete motorsport fanatics to want to do these things.

And when it comes to bigger companies that doesn't work, the sponsor money has to come out of a departments budget and they have to justify it and the fact they like racing cars isn't seen as good enough reason by shareholders.

Trying to get media coverage is also a continual fight, sometimes you'll get a bit of local coverage if you push and have something for them to report, but unless they specialise in motorsport, most of the time they're not really interested, football is king.

[Morris Dancer]

OK, so you (or the company you work for) didn't get a wonderful ROI. Is it just possible that some element of the marketing mix wasn't quite right?

If everyone in motorsport had your "can't do" attitude there'd be no sponsors in minor categories at all - which fortunately isn't the case.

This thread is intended to find constructive solutions, not negativity.

[medler]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

OK, so you (or the company you work for) didn't get a wonderful ROI. Is it just possible that some element of the marketing mix wasn't quite right?

If everyone in motorsport had your "can't do" attitude there'd be no sponsors in minor categories at all - which fortunately isn't the case.

This thread is intended to find constructive solutions, not negativity.

This isn't one teams it's various teams and it isn't a can't do attitude and a lot of time and effort was put into trying to raise sponsorship, sometimes successfully, but they still need the driver to bring in the bulk of the money.

Every team I know tries various way to get other income streams, with about the same level of success. Are they all being negative?

If you feel that teams need to get off thier backside to raise money and it's as easy as you think, why don't you offer your services and expertise on a commision only deal to show them how it's done?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

OK, so you (or the company you work for) didn't get a wonderful ROI. Is it just possible that some element of the marketing mix wasn't quite right?

If everyone in motorsport had your "can't do" attitude there'd be no sponsors in minor categories at all - which fortunately isn't the case.

This thread is intended to find constructive solutions, not negativity.

After 25 years being proffessionally involved in mainstream motorsport in most areas and levels, I would say that no major commercial sponsors in minor categories is closer to the truth than you know.
Please tell me if you know of any which are entirely commercially driven and not personally motivated.
Guess what, we don't live in an ideal world, there are plenty of more improtant injustices in the world than this that we should be more concerned with. It ain't going to change, it's a rich kids ego trip(or dad's).

[ghinzani]

Many teams are run by failed racing drivers. If they coudl'nt do it for themselves then they stand little chance of doing it for others. Plus its very altruistic - surely they would drive themselves if they found the cash?

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

OK, so you (or the company you work for) didn't get a wonderful ROI. Is it just possible that some element of the marketing mix wasn't quite right?

If everyone in motorsport had your "can't do" attitude there'd be no sponsors in minor categories at all - which fortunately isn't the case.

My Company tried, and explaining myself fully, we did make the most of the opportunity with the cars, drivers at open evenings promotions, product placements links from their web sites to ours etc. My point was that the lower levels of motorsport don't attract crowds magazine coverage or TV (unless you watch in the small hours). Most minor category sponsorship is connected to the driver/team not commercial sponsors looking for a ROI
As for my own "can't do atttiude" I am personally very much involved in the junior single seat category, designing/running/updating a team web site, and a driver's web site. I spent many hours learning web design in order to do so.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Richard B

My point was that the lower levels of motorsport don't attract crowds magazine coverage or TV (unless you watch in the small hours). Most minor category sponsorship is connected to the driver/team not commercial sponsors looking for a ROI,

I've been selling advertising, in one medium or another, at home and abroad for nearly 40 years and in my experience there is absolutely no way that funding a drive in a lower, or junior, formula normally makes any commercial sense. You might just be able to make a case for it if your target market were racing drivers / teams competing in the same meetings and you had a very high value unique product but otherwise I really can't see it.

And it's not for the lack of trying either. For example, probably the nearest you will get to a saleable commodity is the Palmer Audi series. Relatively low cost, very commercially aware management with great facilities, dedicated website and every round televised and repeated multiple times with reports in the specialist press.

Still the numbers just don't add up. The audience figures of Motors TV and say Autosport plus MSN don't come close to providing numerically the sort of audience that you could buy elsewhere given the same investment. Even including PR with the local press makes little difference.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I have never once come across a successful example. I would love to be proved wrong.