The simple solution!

[kmchow]

While some may say it stifles creativity and/or ingenuity.

Why not just limit the max rev of F1 engines to something like 15,000 rpm instead of the current 15-20K rpm and ban the use of more exotic components. That should seriously reduce the amount of money needed to develop an engine?

[eatapc]

The sound of those high-revving engines is the best thing about Formula 1.

[Jukebox]

What's the point of calling it F1 if engine performance were to be limited? Each year engine manufacturers will try to increase their hp and revs...that's evolution

[Inigo Montoya]

Rev..o..lut..ions?? Stop using such big words. Max say me no understand or care about dat..

[Jukebox]

cheeky

[Valve Bounce]

Actually, limiting revs to 15,000 would simply direct the holy grail for more HP to better BMEP through other means of engine development, probably creating a wider torque band. As for the sound of 15,000 revs, nothing wrong with that - even lower reving engines from eras gone by produced great sounds for F1.
Banning electronic driver aids should help ease the cost in R&D; severely curtailing testing time would also help.

[Jukebox]

er..no offense Valve, but i think you need to do a further research on the amount of hp generated is calculated

[Valve Bounce]

No offence, Jukes, but I have already gone into this in great detail. The formula that directly links HP with Revs is incorrect.

[Jukebox]

Do enlighten me on how hp generated is calculated Valve? ...the formula would be good enuf

[Valve Bounce]

Let me ask you this: give me one single formula from any Mechanical Engineering handbook that directly links HP to revs. Bet you can't. Just tell me which Mechanical Handbook it is, that's all.

[Jukebox]

A very simple formula....

Torque x rev / 5,252 = Horsepower

[Valve Bounce]

Jukes, have another look at that formula (which is 100% correct) that you quoted.
It links HP with revs and torque, and if you go back to my post, this is what I said: Actually, limiting revs to 15,000 would simply direct the holy grail for more HP to better BMEP through other means of engine development, probably creating a wider torque band.
So if we have a wider torque band, we will have a wider hp curve near the peak lah!! I am sure you will contribute to my post by outlining the various means of increasing bmep like improved combustion chamber profile, valve mechanisms, alternative inlet systems, even inlet and exhaust manifolding, etc.

[kmchow]

On the topic of driver aids, do you consider semi-automatic transmissions to be a big help? Or MORE IMPORTANTLY, a big cost to develop? By limiting revs, there's less--someone correct me--need to seek out lighter components since you don't have to rev as hard anymore??

[Valve Bounce]

If you mean the driver has to pick the change points as semi-auto, then of course it is not as big a help, because the driver has to pick the precise change points up and down to maximise his power for acceleration, and also his maximum engine braking. The cost of developing depended on how fast the gearbox can change gears. Ferrari got that one right in their auto box and saved precious fractions of seconds. I suppose the cost of developing a new, lightweight semi auto that will change just as fast will be the next project, and that will cost.
By limiting revs, I would think the very much lower stresses in the reciprocating parts would require less costly components, but there again, I suppose there will always be the never ending chase for lighter, smaller and stronger engines. The grail for a better power curve might go in a differrent direction for new engine intakes other than the reciprocating poppet valve - like sleeve or even rotating cylinder valves. Not a new idea, but the seals were always a big problem. To the viewing public, especially the guys like me who watch the races on the telly, we wouldn't notice the difference in the lower revs at all.

[neilwaynesmith]

Not being a mechanical engineer (Concrete is fairly inert and unwilling to spin at any revs), forgive the ignorance, but hasn't this already been done with Rallying? The cars were limited to around 300-350bhp via air restrictions, so the concentration has been on improving torque and reducing internal friction.

[Sato san]

Originally posted by eatapc
The sound of those high-revving engines is the best thing about Formula 1.

thats very true...they do sound good .

I dont see high revving engines as being a big problem , its the other gizmo parts that need to be addressed and luckily they are being so.

Not unless we make it standard issue that teams have to produce V12 's

[eatapc]

I was at Indy for the first two F1 races, and a common theme in local press coverage was the sound of the engines -- how they revved higher than CART and IRL. It was sort of a selling point to get the locals interested; many locals went to HEAR, not see, what all the fuss was about.

Weight savings in engine parts -- smaller, lighter (costlier) -- will improve performance no matter what the rev limit. Smaller, lighter engines allow for better chassis balance and set-up flexibility.

The tradeoff against lightness is longevity, so the new rules do address that, and will force the engine designers to come up with parts that are not only light, but stronger and more durable. Hmmmm. Isn't that a prescription for more expensive?

[RWC]

Er,sorry jukebox but valve is right about the BMEP.
They'll go for better flow efficiancy,reduce losses even further,increase combustion efficiancy,etc,etc

Dunno about rev limmits being the answer though.
However i must say though that i do prefer less revs than they use now.The incar shots are incredibly passionless from a sound point of view and even the scream you hear from outside is no great big deal.

Actually the best idea i've heard on this subject was a fuel flow limit valve.(no the cars won't be running out of fuel-think about it)
Actually the guy who proposed it suggested that they should use such a valve in conjunction with a complete freedom in engine configuration...
But then one has to think-where are we going with this?If we're going to change the regs so much we prob should be thinking of true eco engines for the future....

[eatapc]

Originally posted by RWC
...even the scream you hear from outside is no great big deal.
... If we're going to change the regs so much we prob should be thinking of true eco engines for the future....

If you think the engine scream is no big deal, I think you haven't been to a race. You can't get within a mile (literally) of an F1 car on a track without thinking that the sound is the most unearthly thing you have ever heard. And within a hundred feet of the track, you'll be overwhelmed and amazed by what you hear and feel in the gut. No other form of racing comes close to the visceral experience of being near an F1 car in motion.

But I like your idea of using the regulations for eco goals. It keeps F1 in the "high tech" niche, and might result is some beneficial technology.

[Red]

Originally posted by eatapc
You can't get within a mile

You're too modest. Make it 1.5 miles, add some hills, trees and paddocks that might obstruct the sound, and just to spice up the stew add 220,000 (no typo, 220,000 ticket-payers, figures announced 10 minutes before the start) spectators all of them screaming and blowing horns, and, in the above depicted conditions I COULD HEAR THE ENGINES SCREAM WHEN THE LIGHTS WENT OFF!!!!!

[neilap]

What is BMEP?

I agree that the sounds are a part of F1's selling point. Also many of the engine manufactueres will not be pleased if more rules limiting revs or their ability to produce power are introduced. Some teams not only enter F1 for competition but also as a training ground for their young engineers. Begining to limit the motors more may make the series more like the IRL, and therefore less appealing.
All that is being suggested about engineers having to concentrate on different aspects of performance, I am sure are already being done.
IMO it is almost impossible to cut costs in F1. The money is there and the teams will spend it. The only way I see to cut costs would be with a salary cap!

[Logrence]

Originally posted by RWC
If we're going to change the regs so much we prob should be thinking of true eco engines for the future....

P'raps you'll want to go and watch milk float races then?

You can make the engines a little more eco-friendly, but you've still got a 100,000 vehicles going to and from the circuit over 4 days...

As for the feral scream of an F1 car being revved in anger - there's nothing like it! In 2001 I worked at the first corner hospitality village at Silverstone - the plates didn't half rattle around the tables at the start of the race...and can you believe I only got to watch the race on a television in the unit?! It was rude...still, the surround sound system was good...

[Jordi]

Engine sound... ah.... Being in the covered grandstand of the Circuit de Catalunya during January tests, the sound would just revolve around, because the grandstand ceiling kind of curves back (like the one in the new Hockenheim)

Sound is almost the best about F1 right now....

[Valve Bounce]

The turbo years were a bane to engine sound. Even before those dreadfully muted groaning years, we had some wonderful sounds from much lower revving engines. I can still remember watching the Ligier at Brands going up the hill away from where we were standing , and my teeth filling rattled loose. We, (sadly I am one of those now ) the TV audience now do not get this at all. The sounds are drastically muted, and the in car shots are accompanied with what sounds like a slightly noisy sewing machine. I have absolutely no doubts that the sound of an F1 car is fantastic, and I shall be living within walking distance of Albert park later this year.

As for what BMEP is, let's leave this for Jukes, shall we

[neilap]

For anyone who wants to lower the revs on an F1 motor listen to and watch the Badoer exhibition file on F1-live. It is in the videos section. If you are a Ferrari fan its a must see. Its been there for quite awhile now so maybe you guys have seen it before. I have it saved. When I need to get pumped up to go to the gym or something like that I use it as a shot of adrenaline. Play it full blast!!!