[Tech Issue] New generation of Formula 1 2022 and beyond car will remain utilize the old roll-hoop

[Therius94]

The up-close and personal of Formula 1 2022 car.

Despite the generational change of Formula 1 cars from 2022 season onwards, the traditional FOM roll-hoop onboard camera will remain unchanged that has been used since 1998 until present. Because of roll-hoop FOM onboard camera unchanged next year, Formula 1 has no intention to change the new revolutionary 360-degree FOM onboard camera in the future.


The FOM roll-hoop onboard camera.

Your opinions?

[Richard C]

Welcome to the F1 Forum.

However, is this not an odd topic for a post. I assume there is a slew of components that will remain unchanged in the 2021 to 2022 transition. I believe there are major ones (such as the homologated Halo structure) and minor ones (such as the camera mount/footprint) remain unchanged.

Wouldn't this be more of a point of discussion on the things that are changing vs. those that remain the same?

Richard

[chillibowl]

yes welcome

question...is the 360 camera on the t-bar?

they dont use it much, if ever as far as i recall during live broadcasts. think i have seen it with some video clips but never see it after incidents/during red flag periods like we had in the other race. im not even certain they have live access to it?

regardless, i thought the 360 camera was mounted in front of the driver on the chassis hence we can see the drivers face when it rotates?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

F1 has kept the 5 location is the same,

Top T camera which holds front facing or Rear,
Helmet level mounts on side of Airbox (left or right)
A face cam mounted at the base of the Halo
Nose cone (left or right)
And the the top of the chassis "360 camera" as Chillibowl has mentioned.

Of those the first 4 listed are all standard on board cameras for live broadcast
The 360 which uses similar technology to the GoPro 360 but with just one lens giving the view above a horizontal plane and maybe 2 or 3 degrees below. As of last season this was recorded on board, and not available for live broadcast.....The Gopro with 2 lenses gives a spherical capability.

In comparison the pod on an IndyCar role hoop, it's my understanding that this houses a standard on-board camera but is mounted on a motorised rotational mast that turns the camera. It's not the same technology of 360 camera as the F1 system.
The pod makes it aero neutral regardless of where in the rotation the camera is pointing.

[crmalcolm]

The 360 camera:

In development / trial:


As fitted:

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

...As of last season this was recorded on board, and not available for live broadcast.....The Gopro with 2 lenses gives a spherical capability...

thank you for that. was pretty sure i had not seen it used during a live broadcast but obviously could have very easily missed it.

maybe a simple explanation but why is it not available during live feeds? and i assume that also means race control doesnt have live access to it?

seems odd in this age of technology.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thank you for that. was pretty sure i had not seen it used during a live broadcast but obviously could have very easily missed it.

maybe a simple explanation but why is it not available during live feeds? and i assume that also means race control doesnt have live access to it?

seems odd in this age of technology.

I'm not an expert on these cameras, but I would guess several factors,

Are the cameras capable of offloading via a data feed?
Is the ship to shore broadcast system capable of handling the type of image and amount of data that the camera produces and from every car?
What would the production facility require to handle the data and produce it into a format that can be included into the world feed either live or as a replay of the live feed from the camera?

I'm sure there are other factors to it as well, who knows next season they may able to include coverage from the camera either live or in (near real time) replays.

[crmalcolm]

Running a live feed of a 360 camera (as opposed to a camera that can move 360deg) is fairly challenging. There is a lot of extra processing time resulting in extensive delays, and it is not as simple a video feed as running a single shot.

[chillibowl]

During fp2 they had a cam from inside Alonso's helmet.

Bit of glare from the visor and shaky but overall was cool to see a lap from the drivers height perspective.

[chillibowl]

What looked to be a camera position just over the left shoulder in Sainz' car that provided an incredibly clear hd shot.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'm surprised F1 still haven't used both visor and 360° cams. IndyCar have been using visor cams and 360° cams for a while, as in this footage from Graham Rahal's visor cam at COTA in 2019.

https://youtu.be/FZAUb4lb__Q

and this 360° cam footage from the MAVTV 500 in 2015

https://youtu.be/DL9QRruMA_c

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm surprised F1 still haven't used both visor and 360° cams. IndyCar have been using visor cams and 360° cams for a while, as in this footage from Graham Rahal's visor cam at COTA in 2019.

https://youtu.be/FZAUb4lb__Q.

It was pointed out in the Sky coverage from the visor cam Alonso used in the Feww Practices, that there was so much (too much) information that could be of use to other teams on the F1 steering wheel display.

and this 360° cam footage from the MAVTV 500 in 2015

https://youtu.be/DL9QRruMA_c

I refer you to my observation from above

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

In comparison the pod on an IndyCar role hoop, it's my understanding that this houses a standard on-board camera but is mounted on a motorised rotational mast that turns the camera. It's not the same technology of 360 camera as the F1 system.
The pod makes it aero neutral regardless of where in the rotation the camera is pointing.

The question would be as to whether a fixed (either forward or backwards facing) camera in a T Bar or the podded rotatable Camera is best option for your TV coverage.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

It was pointed out in the Sky coverage from the visor cam Alonso used in the Feww Practices, that there was so much (too much) information that could be of use to other teams on the F1 steering wheel display.

The visor cam gives a fairly good view of the steering wheel but there is way too much movement and it's not clear enough or detailed enough to see what the settings are. The layout of the steering wheel varies considerably from team to team and even from driver to driver. So trying to determine how the information being displayed, on a different driver's/team's steering wheel, that's if it can even be read, could be used to your driver's/team's advantage I thought would be very difficult. The 360° cam doesn't give as nearly as good a view of the steering wheel and in some shots it's partially obscured by the driver's helmet, or the camera is focused on one of the other cars on the track.

[chillibowl]

i suppose one could infer details about power settings, gear shifts, etc at or on different parts of the track and in some tight battles this could yield valuable information.

would have loved to seen what Alonso was seeing/doing with his steering inputs back in Hungary when defending against Ham! that would have been some excellent TV!

imo, this sort of insight into a driver's inputs is a lesson unto itself and the benefit to the spectator far outweighs the teams' concern for secrecy.

about the omnipresent 360 cam...this is 2021 so whats the point of putting any camera on the car if they cannot broadcast said image live?

i definitely can understand that there are technical issues with a multitude of feeds and then to render it in real time. no doubt this is a major cost and challenge and a case on my expectations exceeding what is currently possible.

so while they figure it out and build up their capabilities, then how about more footage from these 360 cams after the fact?

in fairness, they dont seem to do much (or anything at all really) with this footage in post production or for later consumption on their web site. possible i have just missed it though!

or maybe its just there for Netflix?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i suppose one could infer details about power settings, gear shifts, etc at or on different parts of the track and in some tight battles this could yield valuable information.

would have loved to seen what Alonso was seeing/doing with his steering inputs back in Hungary when defending against Ham! that would have been some excellent TV!

imo, this sort of insight into a driver's inputs is a lesson unto itself and the benefit to the spectator far outweighs the teams' concern for secrecy.

about the omnipresent 360 cam...this is 2021 so whats the point of putting any camera on the car if they cannot broadcast said image live?

i definitely can understand that there are technical issues with a multitude of feeds and then to render it in real time. no doubt this is a major cost and challenge and a case on my expectations exceeding what is currently possible.

so while they figure it out and build up their capabilities, then how about more footage from these 360 cams after the fact?

in fairness, they dont seem to do much (or anything at all really) with this footage in post production or for later consumption on their web site. possible i have just missed it though!

or maybe its just there for Netflix?

Here is a video from Formula1 YouTube channel, it contains Russell's quallly lap, multiple onboards from Land as well as a full Lap from Alonso's visor cam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo04LcpN9vE

Alonso's lap starts at approx 7:45. on it you can clearly see torque setting changes, differential setting changes, where his brake bias is and right at the end you see the recharge mode.
To viewers it's great to see the driver at work, but a rival team's engineers who could compare that to what their own drivers are doing , especially in a qually or race situation then it really could make a difference towards race strategy.

There was no 360 cam footage in this video, I'm sure it's mid to later in the week before it's released.

When you consider what I presume to be a SSD is removed from the cars, the data then uploaded back to FOM TV's base at Biggin Hill as I believe that's where post production is done . Hours of video from each car, to be gone through to find interesting parts, probably made easier by timing cues from other cameras etc.
But then to process and edit the footage into something usable, I'm not surprised that we don't get to see a huge amount of it released.