HRSR Car Reg eligibility discussion

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Sorry to see Simon's comments. I know the HRSR committee is very keen to stamp out bad driving and has taken steps to rid the series of this plague. A bit disturbed re. the 'hotrod' term! Also, the FIA cars are not always what they appear to be. I understand the dice between one of the Anglias and the 2 Mustangs was incredibly close but clean.

I think if an Anglia is dicing with Mustangs in the dry at somewhere like Donington it is fair to call them hotrods!!
I am afraid it does seem like a few continue to spoil it for the majority. I wasnt there so cant comment on the minute detail but can tell you that the car which was tapped into a spin is an FIA car as I know it well and was repapered into the new HTP papers a month ago.
It has the potential to be a great series but as more avenues for non FIA cars are shut down it will ineviteably become a hot rod series going down a racing cul de sac!

[Ian Sowman]

But if that is a market that needs catering for, is there anything wrong with it?

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

But if that is a market that needs catering for, is there anything wrong with it?

nothing at all, but as the premier historic racing club I am not sure its place is with HSCC....

[gojo]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think if an Anglia is dicing with Mustangs in the dry at somewhere like Donington it is fair to call them hotrods!!
I am afraid it does seem like a few continue to spoil it for the majority. I wasnt there so cant comment on the minute detail but can tell you that the car which was tapped into a spin is an FIA car as I know it well and was repapered into the new HTP papers a month ago.
It has the potential to be a great series but as more avenues for non FIA cars are shut down it will ineviteably become a hot rod series going down a racing cul de sac!

so what your saying simon is saloon club motorsport in britain was limited to fia cars and no other forms are relevant today?
if so i think you ignoring a large peice of our history.
the hrsr was set up to run cars in period using parts that were avalible i.e. many racing anglias would have run in period with a 1498cc precrossflow engine's and bigger brakes this hardly renders them hot rods.
or maybe you would prefer them to parade around the circuits of Europe with fia picnic baskets strapped to there boot lids.
so please don't foget all of the British club racers and engineers of the past.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think if an Anglia is dicing with Mustangs in the dry at somewhere like Donington it is fair to call them hotrods!!
I am afraid it does seem like a few continue to spoil it for the majority. I wasnt there so cant comment on the minute detail but can tell you that the car which was tapped into a spin is an FIA car as I know it well and was repapered into the new HTP papers a month ago.
It has the potential to be a great series but as more avenues for non FIA cars are shut down it will ineviteably become a hot rod series going down a racing cul de sac!

Simon
The HRSR has been in existence since 1986, has run a championship since 1988 and been a proud member of the HSCC family since 1996 or so. Many of the HSCC Championships are for non-FIA spec cars and the HRSR regulations allow wider modifications than those proscribed by FIA papers. However, the dozen or so cars racing 'out of class' (1500cc Anglias; 2 litre Lotus Cortinas and Alfa Giulia Sprints) are penalised by having to carry greater weight. For instance a 'correct' 1300cc Anglia must run at 720 kg whilst an 'out of class' 1500cc Anglia has to run at 830 kg - both weights including 80 kg for the driver.

FIA spec cars are catered for in seperate classes and may race at their homologated weight which is generally lower than that of the equivalent HRSR spec classes. An FIA spec 1.6 Lotus Cortina can run at 751 kg whereas the HRSR spec 1.6 Lotus Cortina must weigh 905 kg, including 80 kg for the driver.

Not all HRSR members are in a financial position to purchase / prepare and race FIA spec cars and although the weighting penalty to try to equalise performance between HRSR and FIA specs may not be a perfect solution it appears to give close racing and has been arrived at democratically by the members at the HRSR AGM held in Nov / Dec each year.

Sorry if this has gone on a bit - just trying to put it all in perspective. However, you are right about aggresive driving and the HRSR does take action where necessary. Perhaps the MSA stewards at meetings should be more pro-active!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by gojo

so what your saying simon is saloon club motorsport in britain was limited to fia cars and no other forms are relevant today?
if so i think you ignoring a large peice of our history.
the hrsr was set up to run cars in period using parts that were avalible i.e. many racing anglias would have run in period with a 1498cc precrossflow engine's and bigger brakes this hardly renders them hot rods.
or maybe you would prefer them to parade around the circuits of Europe with fia picnic baskets strapped to there boot lids.
so please don't foget all of the British club racers and engineers of the past.

a few years ago I attended the HRSR AGM and it was agreed that we would move to FIA engine sizes in the same spirit as Top Hat and that there would be a 2 year run out to allow everyone to organically move to that point (assuming that at least every 2 years some engine work is required!)
The following year the AGM was hijacked by interested parties and this was reversed. Curiously most of the committee are running non FIA cars. You do not need to have a fortune to run an FIA Anglia and in fact it would make much more sense to do so. You would have a lot more racing open to you an dyour car would have resale value. A good example of this is Dan Cox's Anglia, rapid and a champion winner but no bids 2 years on......
HRSR has the potential to be a great series but it has allowed itself to go down this red herring

[John Turner]

Interesting discussions on the eligibility of certain cars, particularly about the Anglias, both sides of which have been given a fair hearing on here. As an impartial observer, I can understand both arguments. On the one hand, the 1500cc Anglia was never manufactured by Ford, and the 1200cc versions would not have got near Mustangs in period. On the other hand, by the mid to late 60's there were plenty of Anglias on the roads with 1500GT engines fitted, lowered with spine jarring qualities (a mate of mine had one) and they were the scourge of certain sports cars! However, to take up Simon's point further, there were 5 Anglias on the grid, all with 1500cc motors and 2 of them shared the front row ahead of 2 Mustangs, a couple of Lotus Cortinas and an Alfa Guilia Sprint GT (which unfortunately didn't make the race). Clearly then not history repeating itself, but then I'm not a fan of re enactments that simply repeat with predictable results, and the Anglias are cetainly fun to watch. As you can see, I'm sitting firmly on the fence with this one and staying there.

[simon drabble]

John I think that is exactly the point, if HRSR runs pre 66 cars then they shoudl be FIA, however if they run cars as they were in the late sixties then allow Escorts as well and it could a cracking series but at the moment its something and nothing. Its not historically accurate and therefore a mish mash that exists because the committee have cars that frankly cannot run anywhere else!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

John I think that is exactly the point, if HRSR runs pre 66 cars then they shoudl be FIA, however if they run cars as they were in the late sixties then allow Escorts as well and it could a cracking series but at the moment its something and nothing. Its not historically accurate and therefore a mish mash that exists because the committee have cars that frankly cannot run anywhere else!

The HRSR was founded in 1986 - there were no FIA App K races around in those days. It has never been the intention of the HRSR, its committee or members that the series be run for FIA cars, though they are very welcome to run in their own classes. What was agreed at an AGM some years ago was that classes be divided as per the FIA divisions and that all cars should run in the correct division that their original engine capacity placed it - this is not the same as saying that cars should be to FIA spec. The next year this was somewhat overturned in that existing cars that were oversized and already competing could remain in the series but that new oversized cars would not be accepted. This was done in consideration of expense for the average HRSR member.
To point out that none of the committee of the HRSR runs an FIA car serves no purpose and is untrue - two of the five own FIA saloons. The committee, one of whom is a founder member and two others have been members for 18 and 15 years, is appointed by the members and few FIA car owners attend the AGM. Two of the committee do have cars that are classed as oversize but it is insulting to infer that decisions are made for self serving interests. There are, actually, quite a few other race organisations where oversize engines are accepted but none have the competitive element and friendly spirit seen within the HRSR.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

nothing at all, but as the premier historic racing club I am not sure its place is with HSCC....

You are beginning to sound like a certain sort of VSCC member Simon. (Generally I regard comparison with the VSCC as a compliment but, not, I'm sorry, in this case.)

Regards

Jim

[simon drabble]

I think most would agree that it is unusual to overturn a democratically agreed change which brought the series more in line with others. To say that it was overturned on the basis of cost is, in due respect "morninggents", rubbish! A 2 year run out was allowed to naturally bring engines back into line.
At the end of he day I am not overly fussed what HRSR do as I no longer have a saloon, but I think its a great shame that they have allowed themselves to be hijacked by oversized Anglias and Lotus Cortina's. The result is that hardly any FIA cars come out and you end up with ridiculous situations where Mustangs and Anglia are battling at the pointy end.
On that basis why not have FJ with twincams and make them a bit faster for the general sengle seater races that HSCC run?!
If you are running a Historic Racing Saloon series it should be vaguely true to history in my humble opinion......

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Gentlemen, I'm quite happy that this discussion should develop further, on a new thread if needs be, provided it is kept constructive and civil.

Sorry Simon if my last posting appeared rude.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

The result is that hardly any FIA cars come out and you end up with ridiculous situations where Mustangs and Anglia are battling at the pointy end.

Simon, surely this is a problem for the FIA guys. At the end of the day, most of us just want to race against someone that wont take us off. I couldn't care less if its an Anglia, a mustang or a 2cv. If the FIA guys are so precious that they wont race then how can anyone else be to blame. With regards the paperwork, here in Ireland I cant get anyone to do an HTP for me so does that make my car a 'Hot Rod'? Also do the spectators give a damn about what wins? Doesn't everyone love to see a mini v's mustang dice? Or does the punter not count?
Sorry if this seems rude but I come from a backround of seeing classes falling apart as people fight over seemingly silly things. If HRSR works, has good grids and as far as I can see great racing, why fix it?

[zefarelly]

In period cars ran oversized engines for club racing, Cortina GT's ran 1650 and angilias ran similar with Cortina discs, infact the COrtina discs where homologated for FiA anglias. I think the HRSR reflected this in many ways, but have allowed it to go a step or two further, drums to discs is one thing, but vented discs and 4 pot ally callipers as an example another step or generation further, thats 70's 80's spec, not pre66, rear discs are brakes of a different type, multi link suspension is radically different to many pre66 cars, but very similar to late 60's and 70's . . . removing ARB's for compression struts is suspension of a different type, its all very difficult, and also hard to date, as well as prove either way. but the performance differentials speak volumes.

the HRSR is successful so they're happy, FiA cars have plenty of play grounds also. A vast majority of cars are very well prepared, by privateers and pretty well driven also, as with anything there are always a few exceptions.

My cars FiA and its not competitive in HRSR in the slightest. although to HRSR spec it could be, I built my car for longer races and International FiA spec races so I'm not complaining, we pay our money and make our choices, however however, in period I think the difference between club and Int spec was less and its not now, to the book that is, having said all that there are HRSR spec cars in Top HAt so its all a bit of a waste of breath to get upset about.

It does slightly annoy me that HSCC?HRSR have some great events that I can't competitively compete at, but that works both ways as well, TOp HAt banned a lot of HRSR cars from Spa . . . . .

Theres also the option of 2 cloned cars in different specs . . . .I know there's a few out there!

[rogerwills]

The one thing I found a bit disappointing at Donington was the lack of prizes or some recognition for class wins or for FIA spec cars - as usual they just called the first 3 cars for the podium and there was nothing for the FIA cars. This would be a way to ensure FIA cars still show up and have something to compete for.

But if you also look at the results from MST, FIA cars finished 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 11th, 18th so its not that they are totally uncompetitive.

I would have thought your GT would have run somewhere in the middle of the field Zef and you would certainly have a class win.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Sorry Simon if my last posting appeared rude.

no offence taken - I am far too thick skinned (or possibly just thick!) to realize that you were being rude!!!
Its an argument that has been well aired for some time and of course at the end of the day I am just expressing opinion
to be honest I guess there is some argument for 1500 Anglias but 1900 Cortinas were surely out of period and as to 2 litre Alfa engines - well Alfa didnt make them until the early 70's!!!!
I personally dont understand why you would want to run your cars to a spec that alienates the car from so many other races.
re the yellow Anglia/Cortina photos on the other thread I would say its a racing incident but clearly the Anglia's fault as the LC had the correct line into the corner and the Anglia's line was at best optimistic!! And before you think I have it in for Anglia's I should disclose that I have for some time toyed with the idea of building FIA Anglia as I like them!

[JimW]

I come to this just as someone who watches historic racing for the racing and not (much) for the history. So I don't really care whether I am looking at a car with full FIA papers and history or a "look-alike". And I don't care (or know) whether or not a car of that precise spec. was actually raced then. TGP is a good example for me. I know the engines are not generally "correct" but I don't really care.

Yes, I enjoy looking at cars in the paddock and ones with history (mechanical or previous drivers) have an added dimension of enjoyment but it is modest compared to the racing. I don't go to concours or exhibitions where the history might well be a significant attraction.

I think that transparency is the key thing in delivering fair understanding of what others are looking at.

Regards

Jim

[zefarelly]

I think Jims Points put some sensible perspective on it all, Punters like to watch saloon cars as they can relate, and theyre fun to watch, so spec of individual car is irrelevant, as long as the racings close. all of the old saloons offer this in spades. especially as old saloons have the added value of going sideways lots!

The International/FiA races are generally longer and not as spectator freindly, however we pay for the track time so we have to live with that. I don't personally race to be watched! I'm also not aware that any meetings rely on spectators financially, merely to create some profit.

There are however a lot of knowlegable and interested people about on race days who do look for correct things and like to see the cars running as they did, which isn't necessarily as the do.

The bottom line for me is that if the HRSR reigned in the more extreme modifications they'd have packed grids every race as more conservatively prepared cars ( but not necessarily FiA) would attend and their cars in turn would be welcome elsewhere as invitees, if not in FiA classes. As was, I think, the case until around 5 years ago. so My big question is why has it gone to the two extremes ?

[Turbo Ace]

Having read all the above on HRSR cars,there are a couple of fundamental errors and assumptions that appear to me. First the HRSR Tech regs are stated as being closely related to period FIA Special Touring Cars Group 5-maybe you think they were Hot Rods but FIA didn't and it is historic.Second there were vented disc brakes available in 1965 and brakes are a safety feature.Third there was a 3 year run out on oversize engines and although overturned by vested interests,the big engine cars carry weight and have to remain in the same ownership.Fourth,check out HRSR race winners over a couple of seasons - hardly shows a highjack by Anglias.Last could it be a very well driven Anglia and not so well driven Mustangs -seem to remember historically Mini Coopers mixing it at the front-against top pro's

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Turbo Ace

Having read all the above on HRSR cars,there are a couple of fundamental errors and assumptions that appear to me. First the HRSR Tech regs are stated as being closely related to period FIA Special Touring Cars Group 5-maybe you think they were Hot Rods but FIA didn't and it is historic.Second there were vented disc brakes available in 1965 and brakes are a safety feature.Third there was a 3 year run out on oversize engines and although overturned by vested interests,the big engine cars carry weight and have to remain in the same ownership.Fourth,check out HRSR race winners over a couple of seasons - hardly shows a highjack by Anglias.Last could it be a very well driven Anglia and not so well driven Mustangs -seem to remember historically Mini Coopers mixing it at the front-against top pro's

Out of interest which period FIA - not Appendix K pre 66...
I totally agree with your safety feature comments - I think you should be able to run yokis as well as they give better grip and therefore safer ;-)
the same ownership is not the case as the Penfold Alfa is now owned by Graham Dodds son and Simon Garrards BMW by Les Ely
re hot rod Anglia's - may I present Dan Cox.....
Out of interest where do you stand on 2 litre Alfa's - given the 2 litre engine came out in the early 70's?

[zefarelly]

brakes being a safety issue is utter bo11ocks, you can lock up and stop on standard brakes fine if you've got any muscle in your leg, all improved brakes do is make the overall performance better, as per a modern car.

FiA appK saloons are pre66

I thought Group 5 is App J 1971 ? or certainly later than 65, therefore not fairly comprable, or strictly speaking correct to call the cars pre66 in spec, if not registration date!

[Yimkin]

The elderly gentleman who sometimes drives our 100E (much more slowly than I do), not being a 10 10ther, has asked me to post the following. In this instance we are in complete accord, which doesn't happen often, believe me:

I have been watching, with concern, the rise of a body of opinion which appears to hold that all pre-66 saloons should comply with FIA Appendix K. The pejorative 'Hot Rod' is applied to non-compliant cars, and their drivers are therefore 'Hot Rodders'. Driving standards are apparently consistent with the relative compliance with App K also, thus App K drivers always request permission to enter the corner first, whilst the Hot Rodder has only to see an FIA car to barge into it. Having raced with both, I am happy to say that neither stereotype is true.

With regard to the claimed historical inaccuracy of the 1500 Anglia, I have to say that in 1965 I used to attend races with two fellow-750MC members, both of whom raced 1500 Anglias bored, I think, to 1650. If you were to drop one of their (fibreglass) panels it would float to the ground like a rose-petal and, in the pursuit of lightness at any cost, they set fire to their steering wheels to burn the plastic off... If they had even heard of the FIA they probably thought it was French and something to do with cheese.

I can see no legitimate reason for preventing such cars from racing now. The only criterion should be that such modifications should have been used in 1966. Also, it is a fallacy to suppose that the FIA route is cheaper - it is the last 5bhp that costs the money, and it is no different in App K. As for it being a level playing field, App K is only a set of rules which can be (and, no doubt, is) cheated with equal facility to any other.

In the end, its only a game, and there is room for all of us. By all means, lets have championships exclusively for Appendix K cars - just dont stop anyone from racing the kind of car they might have driven in 1966......and for Hotrod (usually) read 'period racing car'.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Out of interest which period FIA - not Appendix K pre 66...
I totally agree with your safety feature comments - I think you should be able to run yokis as well as they give better grip and therefore safer ;-)
the same ownership is not the case as the Penfold Alfa is now owned by Graham Dodds son and Simon Garrards BMW by Les Ely
re hot rod Anglia's - may I present Dan Cox.....
Out of interest where do you stand on 2 litre Alfa's - given the 2 litre engine came out in the early 70's?

Turbo Ace wasn't quite right re ownership of oversize cars. The HRSR regs actually say :

"Cars having registered and competed in the championship prior to January 2001 may continue to run at the engine capacities at which they have previously competed in the HRSR Championship provided they are either in the same ownership as they were at 1st January 2001 or have competed in the championship subsequent to that date."

Although awkwardly phrased it was intended that those oversized cars being eligible as they competed prior to 2001 and had the same owner after 2001 could then be sold on.
Peter

[John Turner]

I've just dug out my programme for the Brands Hatch 'Boxing Day Car races' date 27th December 1966.

Event 1 was for Special Saloons, the top class of which (cars over 1300cc) consisted of just 4 entrants:-

31 - A. Bray - Anglia - 1800cc
34 - Z. Redjep - Anglia - 1650cc
35 - N.Davis - Anglia - 1650cc
36 - B. Withers - Angla - 1650cc

Later on in the day, Event 6 - The Edward Lewis Trophy Race 'B' for special saloons exceeding 1000cc, the over 1300cc class had 10 entries of which 8 were Anglia based:

153 - R.M.Scantlebury - Jaguar Anglia - 4010cc
154 - R.B. Gubbings - Buick Anglia - 3552cc
157 - R. Taylor - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
158 - A. Peer - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
160 - D. King - Anglia - 1710cc
162 - B. Peacock - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
163 - A.J. Amato - Anglia - 1650cc
164 - A.J.Roberts - Anglia - 1498cc

Now, you will probably point to the fact that these were 'Special' saloons, but it does support the 'elderly gentleman' quoted by Yimkin, and that there were plenty of big engined Anglias around in the 1960s. This was a well attended meeting (it took us quite a while getting out of the very muddy car park, I recall) and not a 'one off' type event. There should be room for these cars in our historic events, since they clearly form a part of our racing history.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I've just dug out my programme for the Brands Hatch 'Boxing Day Car races' date 27th December 1966.

Event 1 was for Special Saloons, the top class of which (cars over 1300cc) consisted of just 4 entrants:-

31 - A. Bray - Anglia - 1800cc
34 - Z. Redjep - Anglia - 1650cc
35 - N.Davis - Anglia - 1650cc
36 - B. Withers - Angla - 1650cc

Later on in the day, Event 6 - The Edward Lewis Trophy Race 'B' for special saloons exceeding 1000cc, the over 1300cc class had 10 entries of which 8 were Anglia based:

153 - R.M.Scantlebury - Jaguar Anglia - 4010cc
154 - R.B. Gubbings - Buick Anglia - 3552cc
157 - R. Taylor - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
158 - A. Peer - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
160 - D. King - Anglia - 1710cc
162 - B. Peacock - Lotus Anglia - 1798cc
163 - A.J. Amato - Anglia - 1650cc
164 - A.J.Roberts - Anglia - 1498cc

Now, you will probably point to the fact that these were 'Special' saloons, but it does support the 'elderly gentleman' quoted by Yimkin, and that there were plenty of big engined Anglias around in the 1960s. This was a well attended meeting (it took us quite a while getting out of the very muddy car park, I recall) and not a 'one off' type event. There should be room for these cars in our historic events, since they clearly form a part of our racing history.

the trouble is John the excepted cut off date for most conventional series is 1 Jan 1966. As I said at the start of the conversation its a series which has very muddled rules and is therefore in my mind full of hot rods. Alfa's are a great example. They are allowed to run 2 litres at a weight which is lower then FIA Sprint GT weight, 2 litre Alfa engines were first produced in teh 105 series in about 1973, how on earth can that make sense for a pre 66 race. I think that there is only one running (raced by a committee member's son)!