Mika on team Orders

[Raelene]

surely they will be in favour of DC though... he is in front

Mika Hakkinen expects McLaren to issue team orders this year. The Finn told German newspaper, Bild am Sonntag: "I am certain that the time will come when we, the drivers, and the team will discuss it and apply team orders."

Hakkinen, currently third in the World Championship with 12 points, said his car's potential is yet to be seen, claiming that "the reality is that we still have many problems and we have yet to show our real form." He also said that he does not see his teammate David Coulthard as a rival beside Michael Schumacher but added that, "at the moment I would say they are both equally hard opponents."

Speaking of his state of mind, Hakkinen shrugged off claims that he is hard under pressure, saying that in fact he feels better this year than in the previous two. "Life in the last two years was real hell. Hell. No human can go through the pressure I put myself under. I hope I never experience that again," Hakkinen said. "But now it's easier becayse the pressure of the whole world is not on my shoulders," he added, also saying that he is confident he could win a third title and a fourth.

[fatbloke]

I honestly don't expect DC to be in a position to win the WDC - it'll be Mika or no-one for McLaren. However, after his scare today, DC may be on a mission on Sunday in the same way Berger was when his old man died. Another win and it might well be the start of a roll and, who knows what could happen. It does seem to me though, that he'll need to trounce Schumacher on the track, as I don't think he's up to the mental battle.

[Liz]

Mika either thinks he is Michael Lite, or he is beginning to worry that unless DC helps him, he can't do it. Either way it's clear his mind is not on his work.

And unless he is on pole for every race, he can't win... without team orders? Did anybody else expect him to lunge past DC at Silverstone, or try to - and put them both into the dirt?

[Ace]

What a dumb comment Liz, since when Mika needs team orders to win? He is talking about team orders in McLaren, which means they can be for DC or himself; he is not saying I need team orders to win. Just so you remember:

Nurburgring 98

MS leading the WDC, both Ferraris in front row. During the race EI holding Mika for 12 laps during which MS built a 14 secs gap. Mika brilliantly overtook EI and then drove qualifying laps to catch up with MS. Final result Mika won the race. After that, MS chocked in Japan and Mika won the race and the WDC. Did he need help there?
(Go ahead, tell me the Ferrari was so inferior that even EI beat Mika in qualif. tell me that MS lost the title in Australia, where DC let Mika by, tell me that Googyear let Ferrari down, I know all those excuses)

The one who has team orders (or the whole team working only for him) is MS and according to his fans he does not need it, but he gets it, just in case. After all, Japan 97 was a gift from EI that MS did not capitalize in the final race.

Why should we bother talking about team orders in McLaren? They always ran a 2 drivers team, even if for that reason they lost the WCC last year.

[Raelene]

Ace

Mika had the benefit of team orders in Jerez 97 and Australia 98.

Eddie Irvine has had the benefit of team orders - at least twice last year

Michael Schumacher has had the benefit of team orders

Damon Hill has had the benefit of team orders

Jody Schekter did
Gilles Villeneuve has been on both ends of team orders... in fact he nearly quit Ferrari after the 1982 Imola GP after Pironi went past him....

but I guess you knew all that :-)

BTWQ - McLaren have also used team orders in the past... it's nothing new.

should I go on....

BTW Mika does not see his teammate David Coulthard as a rival beside Michael Schumacher but added that, "at the moment I would say they are both equally hard opponents."

so I guess that Mika thinks that DC isn't going to need his help! :-)

[EERO]

Team orders will take effect and I will not be surprised if Hakkinen is put in the position of supporting DC. IMO, so far this season, DC seems stronger and what Hakkinen has said about lasty saeson being "Hell", well it isn't going to be any less so this season. I remain convinced that this season DC will beat MH.

[Liz]

I agree, and could we remember the rule of "attack the post and not the poster" please? Thank you kindly.

Had DC not been forced to give way to his cranky teammate in those two races, the outcome would have been quite, quite different.

P.S. I note that Rubens has been rudely awakened by Ferrari in the matter of who is No. 1 and who isn't - who got the spare car last race? Not the man on pole!

[Ace]

Unfortunate again. DC was never forced to do anything. In Australia it was drivers agreement, In Spain was DC’s and JV's courtesy.

Liz, you said Mika needs team orders and Pole to win, I gave you just one example he doesn't. No personal attack there. Fair enough you don’t like the guy, but at least try to be fair.

[Raelene]

Actually, in Spain he was ordered to move over for the faster Mika... fair enough too - but still team orders

In Melbourne, Mika and the team made a mistake... lucky for them it was his teammate in front, who honoured his "first corner" agreement and moved over.

again... team orders, no matter which way you want to wrap them up.

[Liz]

I'm sure he's a nice boy in his way and I have nothing against him personally. But I have not noticed him slicing his way through the field; when he is fourth, he stays fourth unless people ahead of him crash. And when your teammate's hand is waving you forward when your teammate has the race won, odds are that either he has bet a large sum of money on you, or he's been ordered to give way. That's the way I see it.

[Raelene]

Liz

I've seen Mika slice his way through the field, in particular one race last year (can't remember which one). One thing though, if you start from pole and lead from start to finish (which has happened to Mika on many occasions - due to his great qualifying efforts, and having - on most occasions - the faster car in the race) no need to slice your way through the field.

I do however believe that he sometimes "gives up" and sulks and only puts in an effort when he sees an apportunity through cars retiring... again, this is only sometimes.

[neutral]

Just the fact that he gives up even once undermines his ability as a racer. Have you ever seen MS give up?

[Ace]

What was MS doing behind JV in silverstone? Did he try anything against Mika in Imola? wasn't he waiting for his team to win the race in the pits for him?

You guys forgot the time when DC put Mika in the last position? didn't he went from last to 2nd. Isn't that enough? What about France 99 in ther rain? didn't he beat the hell out the supposed "rain master" in the wet?

[Green_man4421]

ALl I have to say about this is this. Mika is an alright driver he deserved 1 WDC not to. DC is just as good as him but he hasn't has the right oppertunities and Mika may be better on a flying lap/ qualifying but not passing and the like. They both have positive and Negitive.

The situation at Mclaren has discredited DC's abitlityies put him in a number two role he dosn't deserve. This year he may be able to rise above that with the HELp of Mika if the situation arises to win the championship.

Still Ron Dennis ordering Mika to Let DC past seems very unrealistic till the near end of season.

[Liz]

Yes he did move up after DC punted him, you are right about that. He should be doing that every race.

And I don't recall a lot of other so called "drivers of the century" having quite so many inattentive moments and falling off the track out of the lead. (Senna did it once and was distraught for 2 days and as I recall he did not do it again. Cranky Mika did it twice in one season!) If not for TGF's broken leg, those two Moments would have cost him the championship and they darned near did anyway. He is a fine pilote, and I am not saying he isn't - but he's got too many self-destructive little moments to make him a pilote who can win without lots of assistance from his teammate, Uncle Ron and the other guys' mistakes.

[Ace]

There you go again. Refresh my memory about those moments you refer to. Mika needs help of the team to win? What can you say about MS who has won many races thanks to the Maestro’s strategy? Did DC help Mika in one single race last year? Can you mention one race when the team made the difference? Your dislike for Mika is making see things where there is nothing. Mika and Jacques are the best drivers in F1 today, closely followed by MS.

[Green_man4421]

Mika was just in the right place at the right time he now has a bunch of trophies.

[Red]

Ace,
Jerez '97
Melbourne '98

[Rated R]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Can you mention one race when the team made the difference?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha-Ha-Ha...now this is funny, even my little cousin brother who's 9 years old knows that in Mika's case the team makes all the difference. He'd never be a WDC if it were not for McLaren. I have nothing against that, it's simply the kind of racer he is-he needs the best car so he can set poles, be in control and win races. The moment any of these changes MH cracks up (and starts whining).Just think how many races he's won without McLaren being the best car-I'll tell you-one-Jerez97...

[This message has been edited by Rated R (edited 06 May 2000).]

[Ace]

Of course, a 9 years old MS fan is blinded as any other MS fan. Of course you need a good car to win the WDC, just like the Beneton in 94 and 95. We are not talking about that, we are talking about the statement that Mika needs a lot of help from the team and teammate to win. Recent history is contrary to that way of thinking. In many cases it was the team or poor reliability that explains why he was not able to win. Did DC ever complained about not getting the same chances?

In the other hand, MS gets more than a fair help from the team and teammate as part of his contract and you can't dennie that.

[Rated R]

Ace, I remember posting a thread some time ago, where I said that the belief of MS using team orders is inflated. As a matter of fact, I think, team orders were used twice in the case of EI while I don't recollect any instance as far as JJ and Herbert are concerned. Hakkinen has also used the team a couple of times (as one of the above posts asserts)so I don't see any big difference...
Peace

BTW, Schumacher won 3 races and was 3 times second in the 96 Ferrari, which, we can all agree, was far from a great car.

[This message has been edited by Rated R (edited 06 May 2000).]

[Ace]

Hill got pole and almost win in an Arrows in 97 and you will going to tell me that the Arrows was better than the Ferrari will you?

DC won 2 races in 97 (he was going to win in Canada until Panis crashed and MS won) Was the McLaren 97 better than the Ferrari. Mika won 1 race and his car broke while leading in 2 races (silverstone being the one where his car let him down 5 laps from the end) Again,Was the McLaren better than the Ferrari?

Again the topic here is about Mika needing extra help from his team and teammate to win, which i think is totally unfair.

[Rated R]

So what are you attempting to do with this post my dear fellow? Are you trying to disprove any of my statements?
No-the Arrows was not better than the Ferrari in 97 and agin no, the McLaren was not better. I don't see what's that got to do with anything though...
Anyway, my point was that MH has taken advantage of team orders as often as MS has (twice each) so unlike you I don't see any difference between them in this respect.

[Ace]

MS in Canada and Silverstone 99. The move at Stowe was a clasic as far as stupid moves, and don't tell me it was the brakes, brembo dennied there was any problem with them.

You want to count how many times a driver benefited from team orders?

My point was that you don't need to be called the best driver to win in a non-title contender car. MS, DH, DC, Mika, Panis have done it.

[AL Racing]

There were also team orders at play at the end of the '98 German GP when Mika had a problem and DC wasn't allowed to pass him.