ESM Ferrari 458 restrictor team BoP vote .

[The Badger]

Im interested in finding out what you people honestly think about ESM getting a "TEAM" waiver for their restrictor .

I feel Ferrari should get this across the board in ALMS , and not because a team is having a difficult year .

[gwyllion]

There is only one team with a Ferrari 458 in ALMS. So this whole topic is completely hypothetical.

I don't not understand why you want to start yet another heated discussion about BoP in GT racing.

Furthermore, this IMSA decision dates from 29 June 2012. That is almost 4 months ago. Why bring it up only now?

Finally, you are missing a third option: I don't give a ***

[The Badger]

Its right or wrong , end of .

Its not about BoP in general , its about a BoP for a team , and there is no heated discussion , as its a vote .

Once you start handing out waivers for specific , teams , that could get very unstable if others want the same advantage , then there will be troubles !!!

[gwyllion]

If there were two Ferrari teams in ALMS and only one of them got a BoP break, then you would have a completely different situation. However, that is not the case because there is only one team.

In fact the BoP breaks for Aston Martin, Corvette, Viper, Lotus, and BMW are effectively for one team only as well.

Anyway, I chose not to vote...

[arakis]

Badger you're killing me

[MitchZ06]

It's actually quite a legitimate question to be asking....what if the ELMS GTE-Pro F458 went to PLM? Same class, same car, different restrictor....

Yes they've effectively dodged a bullet with no other Ferraris in ALMS but it's still a joke and just says ESM aren't good enough.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Yes they've effectively dodged a bullet with no other Ferraris in ALMS but it's still a joke and just says ESM aren't good enough.

Why is ESM not good enough? All the other GT teams got some BoP breaks.

• BMW M3:
  • GTE rules: 1245 kg, 2 x 28.6 mm
  • end 2012: 1245 kg, 2 x 29.4 mm (+0.8)
• Corvette C6R:
  • GTE rules: 1245 kg, 2 x 27.9 mm
  • end 2012: 1245 kg, 2 x 29.2 mm (+1.3), bigger fuel tank restrictor
• Ferrari 458:
  • GTE rules: 1245 kg, 1 x 40.0 mm
  • end 2012: 1245 kg, 1 x 40.6 mm (+0.6)
• Porsche 911:
  • GTE rules: 1245 kg, 2 x 28.6 mm
  • end 2012: 1220 kg (-25), 2 x 29.3 mm (+0.7), bigger front splitter

[joeb]

Every car racing in alms gt has some type of break. Some have weight, others restrictor, others wing adjustments, and some get fuel flow help. I think it is too a point where if everyone has some type of break and this is now perceived as a level playing field, why not take away some of the adjustments from every car/team. There is still room for parity and things would be more aligned with the rules.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by joeb

Every car racing in alms gt has some type of break. Some have weight, others restrictor, others wing adjustments, and some get fuel flow help. I think it is too a point where if everyone has some type of break and this is now perceived as a level playing field, why not take away some of the adjustments from every car/team. There is still room for parity and things would be more aligned with the rules.

i'd just take away the whole shabang, and implement cumilative weight penalties, which are kept/removed at the end of season depending where the manufacturer finished...

Sure we'd get one year where one mauf dominates, but next season would give back awesome racing..

The first year dominance could be avoided by simply starting the Ferrari on 50kg or 100kg ballast at the start, the rest of the field is preaty much equal why the BoPs are removed...

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by joeb

Every car racing in alms gt has some type of break. Some have weight, others restrictor, others wing adjustments, and some get fuel flow help. I think it is too a point where if everyone has some type of break and this is now perceived as a level playing field, why not take away some of the adjustments from every car/team. There is still room for parity and things would be more aligned with the rules.

Joeb , it was pointed out in another thread , that its a team waiver , not a manufacturer waiver .

Quite possibily , and we dont know , AF Corse sent an AM car to PLM , but possibily didnt send a Pro car , cuz they were not eligable for a waiver .

Let Ferrari have that waiver , no worries with that , but not just specific teams . I just feel thats wrong and opening the door to less well run outfits to parry for the same break .

Where would that leave us ?

[arakis]

the point is that if ferrari was given the BoP the other ALMS teams would have had a **** fit....
I really don't see the problem with this, both ACO/FIA and the IMSA have been micromanaging BoP on a race to race bassis for the past 2-3 years. It came to this ridiculs point long before. I really don't understand why this is such a prolem for some to swalow. It's dead simple BOP is designed to level the competition, and that's what this has done...

ESM being the only F team, and being ****ty were given a waiver to level the playing field of their ****ty drivers. And this has worked out briliantly, as I haven't seen WSM run away with the season. If anything else the Vettes did,,,

[hondafan37]

if you take out the restrictor Break of ESM Ferrari 458, you must take out the BoP breaks for Aston Martin, Corvette, Viper, Lotus, and BMW

[arakis]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

if you take out the restrictor Break of ESM Ferrari 458, you must take out the BoP breaks for Aston Martin, Corvette, Viper, Lotus, and BMW

Not if you're a furry animal with an attitude, and a taste for pork

[The Badger]

Tell ya what , its like talking to a brick wall around here sometimes !!!

Fine ..... let ESM have their break , cuz they cant run the car properly without one , the poor little people .

Good team ESM ............. Im off .

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Fine ..... let ESM have their break , cuz they cant run the car properly without one , the poor little people .

As I showed above, the ESM Ferrari 458 was the car with the least BoP breaks in ALMS

BTW I suspect that the small restrictor break is related to the fact that Ferrari went from 2 small restrictors to 1 big restrictor.

*Revision is to clarify the number of restrictors utilized on each vehicle

source: http://www.imsaracing.net/2012/alms/...2-18%20AoP.pdf

[Dani Filth]

wonder if it's the only 458 running on 1 restrictor
maybe it could help AFCorse to gain some fuel mileage after the fuel tank reduction

[JHamilton]

Does anyone have trap speed times? Because I think IMSA have it spot on. I don't think Corvette or BMW had the top end of Ferrari, but Ferrari don't have the torque of the other two. I'm honestly not sure where Porsche would have fit in, but they have a new car on the way.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

wonder if it's the only 458 running on 1 restrictor
maybe it could help AFCorse to gain some fuel mileage after the fuel tank reduction

nope all 2012 ferrari's (PRO) use a single restrictor.
In the regs there are two tables one for twin restrictors one for singles...ferrari in 2011 used the twin, and moved to sinle in 2012...
in this article of racecar-engeneer http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...-hours-report/

moved to a single air restrictor, which reduced the amount of turbulence
*donno if this refers to outside air turbulance, or engine air turbulance

[joeb]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Joeb , it was pointed out in another thread , that its a team waiver , not a manufacturer waiver .

Quite possibily , and we dont know , AF Corse sent an AM car to PLM , but possibily didnt send a Pro car , cuz they were not eligable for a waiver .

Let Ferrari have that waiver , no worries with that , but not just specific teams . I just feel thats wrong and opening the door to less well run outfits to parry for the same break .

Where would that leave us ?

I understand it is a team specific waiver, but that doesn't really matter to me. We are dealing with so few total numbers of cars in ACO GTE racing that I find team and manufacturer based waivers to have the same effect. I'm not a fan of waivers - team or manufacturer.


Playing devil's advocate here: Who is the team sponsor of ESM? Who is the ALMS presenting sponsor? Who got team specific waivers?

[TF110]

I thought Ferrari was the best GTE? More than a few here have said it. So why does it need a performance break when in WEC it's getting the opposite? Obviously their drivers or the team in general isn't quite as good with the 458 as the teams in WEC. So I think it's unfair. BOP in general is pretty weird to begin with, but when you have the car of the field I don't think you need breaks.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by TF110

I thought Ferrari was the best GTE? More than a few here have said it. So why does it need a performance break when in WEC it's getting the opposite? Obviously their drivers or the team in general isn't quite as good with the 458 as the teams in WEC. So I think it's unfair. BOP in general is pretty weird to begin with, but when you have the car of the field I don't think you need breaks.

Look who ESM has to race vs. who the Ferrari teams face in WEC GTE Pro. The factory opposition, particularly from Corvette changes the game for ESM.

I don't think ESM has the GT experience AF corse has, or even what JMW have, but the team is composed of a bunch of all-star talent from IndyCar, prototypes and GT. Also, if Risi Competizione were to reappear in America I wonder if ESM would have equal equipment... (Just speculation there.)

Chris

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Look who ESM has to race vs. who the Ferrari teams face in WEC GTE Pro. The factory opposition, particularly from Corvette changes the game for ESM.

I don't think ESM has the GT experience AF corse has, or even what JMW have, but the team is composed of a bunch of all-star talent from IndyCar, prototypes and GT. Also, if Risi Competizione were to reappear in America I wonder if ESM would have equal equipment... (Just speculation there.)

Chris

PRO drivers make up the WEC GTE PRO class. So I don't get what that argument is about? The WEC has arguably just as good if not better competition in terms of drivers. Darren Turner and Stefan Mucke have serious GT credentials, as does Aston Martin. They've yet to win a WEC race. The Ferrari is a better car because it's just as fast and better in fuel economy. If ESM needs a break to beat the same types of cars, they're not getting the most out of the Ferrari. That much is obvious, and I don't agree with the BOP for them.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by TF110

PRO drivers make up the WEC GTE PRO class. So I don't get what that argument is about? The WEC has arguably just as good if not better competition in terms of drivers. Darren Turner and Stefan Mucke have serious GT credentials, as does Aston Martin. They've yet to win a WEC race. The Ferrari is a better car because it's just as fast and better in fuel economy. If ESM needs a break to beat the same types of cars, they're not getting the most out of the Ferrari. That much is obvious, and I don't agree with the BOP for them.

The car doesn't need it the two owners/drivers do... namely sharp and brown..although all the help in this world won't help ed, or even shar[, it speeds up the other drivers so there is an overall balance... Like all BoP it's BS...