Carlos Sainz Jnr - Could he get a top drive in 2017?

[chunterer]

I was reading Mark Hughes analysis of Carlos' time together against Max and it makes very interesting reading and is precisely the sort of analysis we all should be doing when working out the relative merits of drivers.

Essentially what MH was saying is that when you purely take all the races last years where there were no mitigating circumstances Max beat Carlos 6-4 but there was probably only a 10th of a second between them on outright pace, maximum.

When you look at what Max did in the RB straight away in Catalunya, this paints Carlos in a very positive light and bodes very well for Sainz's long term F1 career.

Would Ferrari consider him as a replacement for Kimi?

Should we consider him in the same breadth as Max, Stoffel etc as potentially one of the top 3-5 drivers of the next 10 years or so?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

We should, but I doubt he'll get the opportunities as he's not a darling of RBR like Ricciardo and Verstappen were. However should he leave RBR at a good time then who knows. Right now I wouldn't bet on it though, as much as I think he should be put in that league.

[chunterer]

I still think Magnussen could be a top liner in the future as well. But again does his face fit as well as his ability?

[BSchneiderFan]

Much of the next 3-5 years depends on that second Ferrari seat. If Ricciardo gets it, Sainz might be promoted to Red Bull. Or Sainz might get it himself. Or Bottas could get it. Or Ferrari could surprise and confound us all by keeping Räikkonen on for another year - he still shows flashes of speed but won't trouble Vettel over the balance of a season, an approach Ferrari has been willing to take to its driver pairings in the past.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I was reading Mark Hughes analysis of Carlos' time together against Max and it makes very interesting reading and is precisely the sort of analysis we all should be doing when working out the relative merits of drivers.

Essentially what MH was saying is that when you purely take all the races last years where there were no mitigating circumstances Max beat Carlos 6-4 but there was probably only a 10th of a second between them on outright pace, maximum.

When you look at what Max did in the RB straight away in Catalunya, this paints Carlos in a very positive light and bodes very well for Sainz's long term F1 career.

Would Ferrari consider him as a replacement for Kimi?

Should we consider him in the same breadth as Max, Stoffel etc as potentially one of the top 3-5 drivers of the next 10 years or so?

I think Carlos is every bit as good as Max, however the result Max achieved in Spain was like a perfect storm, but in a good way. The track being very suited to the Red Bulls, difficult for all to overtake even with DRS, the Mercs taking each other out, Red Bull and Ferrari splitting strategies which resulted in their "lead" drivers being on the worse strategy because the tyres lasted much longer than anticipated by everyone including Pirelli.

Had Carlos or Daniil been in the Red Bull and qualified as well as Max (and that is the question) would they have ended the weekend with the same result.

Max was handed some good cards but all kudos to him as he drove flawlessly to make the most of it.

[Neppatsrev Xam]

Originally Posted by dsg

I think Carlos is every bit as good as Max, however the result Max achieved in Spain was like a perfect storm, but in a good way. The track being very suited to the Red Bulls, difficult for all to overtake even with DRS, the Mercs taking each other out, Red Bull and Ferrari splitting strategies which resulted in their "lead" drivers being on the worse strategy because the tyres lasted much longer than anticipated by everyone including Pirelli.

Had Carlos or Daniil been in the Red Bull and qualified as well as Max (and that is the question) would they have ended the weekend with the same result.

Max was handed some good cards but all kudos to him as he drove flawlessly to make the most of it.

Carlos was beaten by Max by a big margin last year and in the first 4 races of this year as well, he might be close in qualifying , but in races Max is much better.

[steve_r]

Sainz largely matched his teammate in the early part of last year, but then made a few mistakes towards the end of last year (he is allowed I suppose, being a rookie). He also has not started this season particularly strongly.

Ferrari have the budget and lure to tempt the very best drivers in the world.
Is Sainz good enough for F1? - yes.
Is he one of the top 5 or 6 drivers in F1? - no.
Will he get a Ferrari seat - no. There are plenty people ahead of him in the queue, including a certain Mr Grosjean.

[FIRE]

If Rici moves up Sainz is the first choice to replace him but I don't think that will happen before 2018.

Still believe Sainz is very quick but compared to Verstappen he lacks racecraft.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Still believe Sainz is very quick but compared to Verstappen he lacks racecraft.

That is an interesting observation considering he has quite a few more years racing in cars than Max.

[Paradise City]

He has better prospects than Kyvat. But he's a bit unfortunate to be surrounded by so many hotshots, it takes the edge of his career momentum. He's a little eclipsed - if only in terms of perception. He could wind up like Hulkenberg, just failing to get to the top tier.

[S griffin]

I agree with those that what Sainz lacks compared with Max, is racecraft. Carlos is more 'let it come to you' driver, while Max will go for it regardless. So I think Sainz will be around a while, but I can't see him getting a top drive myself.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree with those that what Sainz lacks compared with Max, is racecraft. Carlos is more 'let it come to you' driver, while Max will go for it regardless. So I think Sainz will be around a while, but I can't see him getting a top drive myself.

What do we mean by 'racecraft'?

He clearly has the confidence and feel for overtaking...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

He has better prospects than Kyvat. But he's a bit unfortunate to be surrounded by so many hotshots, it takes the edge of his career momentum. He's a little eclipsed - if only in terms of perception. He could wind up like Hulkenberg, just failing to get to the top tier.

I really believe that the only thing that has stood in the way of getting into the top tier is his size and weight, he has everything else, and the regulators should address the problem.

[Neppatsrev Xam]

Originally Posted by chunterer

What do we mean by 'racecraft'?

He clearly has the confidence and feel for overtaking...

The Singapore GP of last year is a good example

where Max had 2 clean overtakes on Grosjean and Maldonado, Sainz had to force both off track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBqU_rb0NHk

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

I really believe that the only thing that has stood in the way of getting into the top tier is his size and weight, he has everything else, and the regulators should address the problem.

Isn't Sainz lighter and shorter than Verstappen (just)?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Isn't Sainz lighter and shorter than Verstappen (just)?

Sorry, I was referring to the Hulk Adam!

[Adam43]

Oh yes, sorry.

[RWill2073]

I don't think it's fair to compare sainz to verstappen. At least to expect him to be equal to verstappen. Verstapen is from a different planet. I'm extremely excited to watch f1 just to see what his career brings. He's just otherworldly. But I'd rather have sainz than Kimi/button/bottas/massa. Really the Williams team is lagging with both their drivers, imo.

I feel like sainz is good enough to be the #2 at Ferrari or #1 at williams, #2 at mclaren. I hope he gets a shot, but then again, I hope magnussen gets a shot in a competitive car and also that Alonso gets another shot to compete, and there's just so few seats to to around.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I don't think it's fair to compare sainz to verstappen. At least to expect him to be equal to verstappen. Verstapen is from a different planet. I'm extremely excited to watch f1 just to see what his career brings. He's just otherworldly. But I'd rather have sainz than Kimi/button/bottas/massa. Really the Williams team is lagging with both their drivers, imo.

I feel like sainz is good enough to be the #2 at Ferrari or #1 at williams, #2 at mclaren. I hope he gets a shot, but then again, I hope magnussen gets a shot in a competitive car and also that Alonso gets another shot to compete, and there's just so few seats to to around.

Agree with all of that. I feel that Bottas has been a bit overhyped over the years, I don't think he'd do any better at Ferrari than Kimi does. Sainz could be faster than then both, however he's definitely been left it Verstappens shadow. I don't ever really remember being impressed by Sainz in a grand prix. Has he ever been close to getting a DOTR on here? Verstappens had it a number of times. I know people keep saying Sainz is just as good as Verstappen, but I'm not seeing it.

Grosjean deserves a better drive, as does Magnussen so we can see what he's got. Hulkenbergs shares have gone now since he's been partnered with Perez, and I must admit Alonso's shares have also gone down a bit after he's failed to really stand out over Button.

Sainz in a better seat in 2017? About the only thing I could see is a Williams. He'll have to properly beat Kyvat though.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Agree with all of that. I feel that Bottas has been a bit overhyped over the years, I don't think he'd do any better at Ferrari than Kimi does. Sainz could be faster than then both, however he's definitely been left it Verstappens shadow. I don't ever really remember being impressed by Sainz in a grand prix. Has he ever been close to getting a DOTR on here? Verstappens had it a number of times. I know people keep saying Sainz is just as good as Verstappen, but I'm not seeing it.

Grosjean deserves a better drive, as does Magnussen so we can see what he's got. Hulkenbergs shares have gone now since he's been partnered with Perez, and I must admit Alonso's shares have also gone down a bit after he's failed to really stand out over Button.

Sainz in a better seat in 2017? About the only thing I could see is a Williams. He'll have to properly beat Kyvat though.

Based on the Monaco performances and results we might have to call a lot of your post into question?

[Razzzor]

Monaco is all about track position so doesn't really show accurate performances.

Although Perez again beat Hulk, what by a mere 80 seconds. Hulk was held up sure, but he wasn't going to match Perez.

Alonso beat Button but I don't think it was by that much. Despite being in clean air for much of the race. Not sure though, Button just gets listed as 1 lap down so I can't see the real gaps, but before he got lapped I remember him not being far behind.

Sainz; stuck in traffic most of the race. 5th fastest lap though.

Verstappen was fantastically charging through the field and got to Sainz before he crashed. Think he could have been on for 5th IF he continued to pass like he was. But he was bound to crash eventually.

Can't remember what happened to Bottas and the socially inept one (Kimi), apart from him driving through the tunnel on top of his wing.

[S griffin]

Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well

Damon Hill reckoned he or Perez might look interesting in a Ferrari?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well

I'm not sure he's raised his game so much as he's not being shown up by verstappen as his teammate anymore. He's going to look a lot better now by virtue of not being compared directly to verstappen.

[Paradise City]

I think Sainz is a bit more disciplined, a bit more steadier. The promotion of Verstappen may have given him a little more room to breathe.