[BTCC] NGTC details released

[gregc]

Some more detailed info on the new rules just announced - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82783

RWD is in, development car to run in practice during the final weekend of this season. Sounds good to me....

[duke_toaster]

Looks good, but I can't find any more details anywhere else. Presumably they will still be nice and wide.

[gregc]

There's another image at btcc.net, there's also a lot more detail in the press release than the autosport article - presumably that will go up on the official site soon.

Edit - and as I typed that, so it appeared - http://btcc.net/html/generalnews_det...m=&searchterm=

Width is standardised at 1875mm

[Sodemo]

So the price for one of these things is £100,000?

Isn't that the going rate (or thereabouts) of an S2000 car?

Weren't the RML Chevy's up for sale for £67,000 a few weeks ago?

So many questions, so little time!

[gregc]

That was £67k for a 2(?) year old car though, as I read it they're talking about £100k to build brand new...

[touring fan01]

A new BMW or Chev S2000 well set you back about a 1/4 million quid!

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So the price for one of these things is £100,000?

Isn't that the going rate (or thereabouts) of an S2000 car?

Weren't the RML Chevy's up for sale for £67,000 a few weeks ago?

So many questions, so little time!

£67k for a rolling chassis. Add in the engine, maintenance from the builder and technical support and it gets more expensive. The BMWs cost around £200k in kit form, then there's extra for all the upgrades and special tricks that BMW can sell you. I was once told there's a special Castrol oil the works WTCC BMWs have used that costs 2000 Euros for a drum!

BTC-Touring spec cars cost £120k originally, as a comparison.

[Sodemo]

Wow.

I am sure though when S2000 first came out the costs were only slightly more than BTC spec. I guess the costs must have gone up, I must have been "working from" out of date figures.

Still, it makes you wonder where all that money goes. If I recall the Clio's "only" cost about £22,000 and aren't massively slower than the BTCC boys. So if you can go that fast for 20 grand, where does the extra 80 grand go to? Sure, Clio's are a spec series rather than an open entry saloon series, but if you make enough parts standard, could you not bring the costs down even more?

But if those figures are correct, and 200,000 is the going rate for a new S2000 car, then yes I agree, halfing that is a good move. Still, 100,000 is still a lot of money.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

But if those figures are correct, and 200,000 is the going rate for a new S2000 car, then yes I agree, halfing that is a good move. Still, 100,000 is still a lot of money.

Its not a lot of money for the premier series in the UK. The cost of a car for a much lower profile series like the British GT championship will make your eyes water. And in British F3 the budget for one car is about £700,000 a season!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Its not a lot of money for the premier series in the UK. The cost of a car for a much lower profile series like the British GT championship will make your eyes water. And in British F3 the budget for one car is about £700,000 a season!

OK, so the car itself costs £100,000, but what about running costs over a season?

What is the running budget for a BTCC season? £500,000?

[Alfa Fan]

An awful lot less than that for a privateer! The aim of NGTC is for it to be sub £200k

[tux1234]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Wow.

I am sure though when S2000 first came out the costs were only slightly more than BTC spec. I guess the costs must have gone up, I must have been "working from" out of date figures.

Still, it makes you wonder where all that money goes. If I recall the Clio's "only" cost about £22,000 and aren't massively slower than the BTCC boys. So if you can go that fast for 20 grand, where does the extra 80 grand go to? Sure, Clio's are a spec series rather than an open entry saloon series, but if you make enough parts standard, could you not bring the costs down even more?

But if those figures are correct, and 200,000 is the going rate for a new S2000 car, then yes I agree, halfing that is a good move. Still, 100,000 is still a lot of money.

You ask where the other 80k goes, well an engine rebuild on a Bmw engine is 20k and thats just for a refresh.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

OK, so the car itself costs £100,000, but what about running costs over a season? What is the running budget for a BTCC season? £500,000?

At the top level its about £350,000 for a WSR or Dynamics etc. But most do it for much less than that. Probably £250,000. And with the new regs it will be a heck of a lot less than that again. So next to other series like F3 or GT its a bargain.

[privateer]

This bit gets me

early October 2010, teams planning to build NGTC for the 2011 BTCC will be provided with all the drawings and data for the mandated component assemblies - thus enabling teams to more easily and effectively design and build their own cars to incorporate those specified components.

So in October builders will receive the info and then will try and design build and test the car all befor the March kickoff??

I make that around 20 weeks including Xmas so not a chance realy for anyone in 2011 to build a ngtc spec car

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

I make that around 20 weeks including Xmas so not a chance realy for anyone in 2011 to build a ngtc spec car

Sorry but thats rubbish. You think 5 months is not enough time to build a car using some major prebuilt assemblies?! Then you better tell Dynamics that. They designed and built their Civic early 2008 in only about 3 months and that was a helluva lot more involved than one of these new cars.

[FIRE]

It's late in the year but on the other hand did we expect NGTC cars in 2011? I personally not.


Surprised by the looks of the car. Super2000 is criticized for it's unspectacular looking cars. NGTC isn't any better. I expected cars more looking like TC2000 of the old BTC-T.

I am curious if costs (£100k (chassis) + £25k (engine)) stay at that level. Or that it increases (like in almost every other series, even single make cups).


BTW It's great RWD is allowed.

[Aunt Sally]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So the price for one of these things is £100,000?

Yes, but what a lot of people have forgotten is: that is the price to buy a car!

Not the cost to build one from scratch!

Current teams like Dynamics, Arena, 888 and RML have all built their cars from scratch.

AND unless someone is prepared to build and develop a BMW, Ford, Vauxhall or whatever the cars are not going to be there...

The cost savings over the current cars will be on the components, you won't need to keep as many spares (apart from body panels) as they currently take to a meeting. So teams could only need ONE transporter to go racing...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Aunt Sally

Yes, but what a lot of people have forgotten is: that is the price to buy a car!

Not the cost to build one from scratch!

Current teams like Dynamics, Arena, 888 and RML have all built their cars from scratch.

AND unless someone is prepared to build and develop a BMW, Ford, Vauxhall or whatever the cars are not going to be there...

The cost savings over the current cars will be on the components, you won't need to keep as many spares (apart from body panels) as they currently take to a meeting. So teams could only need ONE transporter to go racing...

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that it would cost more to build one yourself, or less?

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's late in the year but on the other hand did we expect NGTC cars in 2011? I personally not.


Surprised by the looks of the car. Super2000 is criticized for it's unspectacular looking cars. NGTC isn't any better. I expected cars more looking like TC2000 of the old BTC-T.

I am curious if costs (£100k (chassis) + £25k (engine)) stay at that level. Or that it increases (like in almost every other series, even single make cups).


BTW It's great RWD is allowed.

Yep, great news that RWD is allowed, have always been a big BMW fan, so would love to see the marque stay in the sport. I just hope whatever performance balancing they do is fair and that they don't bias one particular type.

Regarding the looks, I think the size of the wheels will make a big difference, 18" wheels instead of 17", its only one inch, but as far as I recall the WRC cars use 18"s on tarmac rallys, and 18 is only one inch shy of the super touring 19" wheels. Those ST wheels did look amazing, but I am sure the 18s will look just as good.

[JAG]

At last, the BTCC can now come out of the dark ages with those dreadful S2000's!

[Sodemo]

The trouble is, where does this leave the BTCC in relation to the rest of the touring car "world"?

If the BTCC goes with its own rules and the rest of Europe / other territories go with the FIA "world engine", the BTCC is going to be back in 2001 again, with its own bespoke regs. Surely it would be better for all concerned to have one fixed set of regulations for touring car racing the world over?

[duke_toaster]

There has been talk of Sweden adopting the NGTC rules.

[Calorus]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The trouble is, where does this leave the BTCC in relation to the rest of the touring car "world"?

If the BTCC goes with its own rules and the rest of Europe / other territories go with the FIA "world engine", the BTCC is going to be back in 2001 again, with its own bespoke regs. Surely it would be better for all concerned to have one fixed set of regulations for touring car racing the world over?

I think this is more appealing for a lot of the manufacturers, particularly like Honda, BMW and Toyota who trade a lot on their engines.

Just as Aprillia pulled out of Moto2, I think we'll see a lot of consternation over the single engine formula.

More importantly for those (perhaps Chevrolet) who really only want to show people they exist and have very little sporting heritage to speak of, even the new regs provide a 'blank' engine which people can make use of.

I also think that the spectacle should be reasonably good. The 18" wheels and saloon car bodies should provide a bit of a throw back to the good old Super Touring days.

I (and those who know me will be surprised to hear it) am cautiously optimistic. And whist I've happily lived without BTCC since 2001's disastrous first season of BTC regs, I do long for the 'Good old days' Where BTCC was the Championship to watch.

[trebor901]

one thing, will this turn BTCC into sillouhettes? or will the teams still be able to use the body and chassis from (for example) a BMW 320si or Chevrolet Cruze?

[FIRE]

Body and partly the chassis

[duke_toaster]

It's sort of half-and-half. Teams will have the option of running a Swindon (IIRC it's based on a General Motors lump) engine, or to build it themselves with some spec bits (turbos and things).

One thing that would have been nice to have seen is allowing 4WD cars to be converted to RWD, but I suppose that one isn't going to happen. Hopefully, as suggested, the Swedish championship could adopt NGTC. You never know, this could dominate if Super 2000 hits trouble with the 1600cc turbos ...