Thank god theres one left!!

[neutral]

I would just like to show my appreciation to MS for the way he handled the media. In my mind he is the only true racer left. It astonishes me how the media and most of this panel tend to critisize him. Everyone talks about how Mika gives up and David always sulks, and how drivers in good cars dont deserve their drive. Well the same can not go for MS, who constantly gives his all and more for Ferarri. At the end of the day racing is going to be dangerous, and MS maybe over steps the limit, But with little to excite us in F1, we need someone like Michael who adds a bit of flavour to any title showdown. In my opinion he is a dying commodity in the sport and I hate to think about how F1 would be like without him. So keep it up Michael and don't change your style one bit. If i want to see fair and coordinated driving then I can always look at the twenty other stiffs behind you.

[Jay]

What pilot have you been watching?

The way TGF has been playing with the media just goes to show what pompous overrated pilot he really is. He seems to think that he is the only pilot worthy of the top step of the podium. He feels that others such as JV, DC and EI don't have a clue about racing F1, and do not have the right to critisize his tactics at the start of a race.

I have no more respect for TGF than I do for Micheal Andretti, another pilot full of himself in his series.

[neutral]

Michael is not the one doing the continuos whinging after each race. After he got taken out of the last race, we saw a man who was able to take the short end of the stick and not whinge. If DC, JV, or EI dont like to drive unless everything is coordinated and pretty then they should get out of racing. In my opinion theres should be no such thing as a driver forum. This can not possibly lead to more exciting driving. So stop the whinging, crying and criticism and let the drivers race. People are always concerned about the safety of the drivers, but they are paid millions of dollars. It is this ludicrous pay which compensates them for taking the risks they take each week. So I say cut all the safey squabble and bring some danger back into F1. Indy is a perfect example, and Im suprised that Jaques being a former Indy champ has turned into the pussy whinger that DC is.

BRING ON THE RACING!!!!
BRING ON THE DANGER!!!!
I CAN COUNT ON YOU SHUI!!

[angst]

The worst thing here is that MS is the drivers representative on safety matters. All he seems to be interested in is making the car as safe as poss, on the safest circuits so he can ram everydody else off the road if they might beat him in a straight fight. Will he have blades on his wheels next?

[Valve Bounce]

I don't want to spoil the party here, but if you want to admire TGF, then you really need to have a short memory. His antics in years gone by have left little to be admired about his character. Lets start with Macau where he drove Mika into a concrete wall just because Mika wanted to pass him, then you can choose which race in which year you want to admire TGF less. I just don't want to dig up dead horses, so don't lets kow tow to St Michael!!

[Slowcoach]

Well ,I for one , will admit to a grudging respect for MS , he certainly doesnt complain when he is on the wrong end of what he often dishes out and despite the fact that I am patriotic and will always cheer on DC and JH or EI I really think F1 needs MS more than MS needs F1 - there are very few 'personalities' or should I re-phrase that to 'interesting characters' in F1 (or world sport in general for that matter) left and although I dont agree with the zigzagging at the start or wheel banging(currently being discussed in another thread) we need some excitement in F1. Put them all in equal cars and my moneys on MS to wring every last drop out of it - and it's a no-brainer if its raining .
He courts controversy , and controversy=excitment=good racing.

[Valve Bounce]

Firstly, this is because no one has done the dastardly deeds to MS that he is famous for. AND secondly, he didn't run into the pits and accuse DC of trying to kill him at SPA. OH NO!! Not our wunderkind!!

[angst]

I don't think anybody would deny that MS is a very talented driver, but its the zigzagging and wheel banging that is THE problem with him (or should that be Him). Controversy does not equal good racing, good racing=good racing, simple as that, and while ever the trust required among the drivers that nobody is going to do anythging stupid or danerous you won't get good racing.

[angst]

Sorry, should have said if the trust required isnn't there.

[Tristan]

neutral: My sentiments EXACTLY!!!

A note to all others: QUIT ****ING MOANING!! ON AND ON AND ON!!! ISN'T F1 ABOUT RACING?? WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THESE TOPICS "OH, F1 IS SO DULL: NO DUELLING ANYMORE, NOT LIKE THE OLD DAYS"

HYPOCRITS ALL OF YOU!

[Liz]

But it's been said over and over, the exciting racing doesn't come from wheel-banging when you are sitting there waiting to see if someone will be killed, because the person banging the wheels doesn't give a flying damn if the guy he's hitting lives or dies, as long as he gets ahead on the track. When the dicing and dueling happened, pre Senna, it was among honourable men who knew that they held not only their own lives but the lives of others in the flick of that wheel. When it goes on today, it means SHOW ME THE MONEY and if you have to die so that I get more endorsements, well, it was nice knowing you.

If the other pilotes think TGF is dangerous, I'd take their word - and if it was only a backmarker or two (like Rosset) I would still be inclined to listen - but when it's the front runners and former WDCs who are saying these things, I for one am inclined to give the comments a lot of weight.

I don't know how old you are Tristan, but it's possible I guess that you have never seen really good racing.

This is not really good racing.

[EERO]

Thank you, Liz. I second everything you say.

I only wish to add that for the younger members of our forum, you have been fortunate to know this sport during a relatively safe period. The litany of dead drivers from the 60's and 70's is exhausting and depressing. If drivers drove aaggressively during that period, they did so fully aware of the risks and with a lot more respect for their fellow racers.

[marcus]

I dont want to get involved in this little contatont ( if thats what it is called..but i would like to comment on your post Liz.

I totally agree with you about dangerous driving and would have a good listen to other drivers rather than spectators any day..but you mentioned Senna in your post (actually pre Senna) and in my opinion drivers today ..well some of them think they cannot seriously hurt themselves of course we know this is not true..but it seemed even to me that when Senna was racing he had respect for other drivers and vice versa to a extent anyway..sure he had plenty of crashes..but I got the feeling they knew the score and worked around that accordingly and it seems to me that there isnt that respect for fellow drivers today.

and EERO..i wasnt around to see the 60's or most of the 70's but if drivers died like that today i would seriously think about another hobby..sure the occasional wheel banging excercise is good to see but the racing is what I like ...a good clean pass on another driver is an artform these days and should be appreciated for what it is now how spectacular it looked..i have a list of over 80 drivers since 1950 that have been killed in motorsport (not all in F1 ..but they all raced in F1 at one stage) and that is way to big a list.

[Liz]

I wouldn't ask Prost if Senna was a gentleman pilote. I wouldn't ask Mansell either. Or Eddie. Or Piquet. Geez, who WOULD I ask? I can't think of anybody. On the other hand, if you're saying most of the pilots knew Senna was dangerous and adjusted their driving styles accordingly, in most cases you would be right. Being dangerous and being skillful don't always go hand in hand. Thank God for life and limb, in his case they usually did.

As far as pilotes dying in the "olden days", yes they did. But think how many more would have died if everyone drove like TGF drives. Jackie Stewart has said on many occasions that now it is the pilotes who are the danger, not the cars, because they think they are invincible. I'd add to that, and in one case, willing to try to win at any cost, even the cost of someone else's life.

[angst]

I think Andretti (Mario) made a similar point. The safer the cars and circuits, the more ludicrous the actions of the drivers. Before the safe machines we now have the drivers behaved themselves because the dangers were so very obvious. Now there are people like TGF who lacks either imagination or any repect for the well being of his peers, this has to be taken to task by the stewards and the FIA - something they have consistently failed to do. This whole situation is a tragedy in waiting and its quite frustrating having to wait for the inevitable, instead of being able to praise the powers that be for their prompt response. Charlie Whiting et al should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

[Tristan]

Please don't take me the wrong way: irresponsible and dangerous driving has no place in modern motor racing. Point taken. The moment there is any real threat to a driver's saftey something should, of course, be done.

BUT my point is just what has TGF done so wrong? I assume by "wheel banging" you refer to France and DC. But who had the inside racing line? Schumi. Who turned in and did the "wheel banging"? DC. As even MIKKA HAKINNEN said this weekend, for any incident there has to be TWO people involved.

From a completely neutral perspective, I feel MS's treatment has been quite atrocious from the press, other drivers and (unfortunatly) members of this forum who have jumped to easy conclusions re: the actions of this much maligned driver. Almost everyone ASSUMES he tried to stop the race at Austria. MAY BE he did. MAY BE HE DID NOT. To me the car looked thoroughly stalled even before it started to roll. Whatever happened it certainly was NOT "dangerous". What saddens me is there being a band of "Schumi haters" who jump on the band-wagon of believing it was a deliberate action. Sure he is an arrogant little ****e, but so far this season he has done NOTHING wrong and does NOT deserve half the treatment he recieves.

Not one thing outside the rules. Not one.

It's psycho-babble and sour-grapes from DC that has been blown up out of all proportions. Unfortunatly many people choose to join in in order to bring the man down. I think that is sad that we can all be manipulated in such a way. Build 'em up, knock 'em down........

[Liz]

I think that Schumi-worshippers are as bad as those who hate him - because both are blindly ignoring whatever doesn't fit their own perception of the man.

If you'll check back as far as three or four years, you'll see that Jacques was saying these things about TGF then (and being called a liar and a crybaby) as was Johnny Herbert (ditto) and anyone else who drove on a team with him. Gerhardt Berger was asked by F1 Magazine once if he thought TGF was dangerous or stupid, and his answer, typically Berger, was "I don't believe the man is stupid." Now perhaps every other current and former pilote in F1 is a whining crybaby and they are all jealous of TGF. But using Occam's Razor (that is straining credulity the least) one would have to assume that there is some truth to what all these people are saying. Yes, DC and Jacques are friends, and no, I don't think that they are "ganging up" on some poor defenceless innocent lamb just to be "mean", they are standing together against something they genuinely believe to be wrong. You would do the same in their place, and so would anyone. Eddie Irvine has a blunt way of putting the same points across, but boil out the loutishness and he's got the same concerns.

And may I point out that there are a lot of legal things that are dangerous and that moral and ethical people do not engage in. Just because you can "get away with it" does not make it right. Don't they teach ethics in your school?

On the day when this dangerous behaviour leads to one or more deaths, I hope that all the people who are trying to excuse this dangerous behaviour will be able to sleep. Of course most of them will then turn on TGF and put all the blame on him - after all, their forte is "blame others", isn't it?

I don't hate TGF. I hate what he is doing to prostitute a sport I have enjoyed for more years than most of you have been alive. And I would say the same thing to his face.

[Tristan]

Woah! I'm no Schumi worshipper! No way! I think he's arrogant, big headded and has an ego the size of a small African nation. He is NOT my favourite driver (just the best, as proved today!!)

BUT if you can show me ONE peice of driving this season that could be in any way be called "dangerous", and I will concede the point. But there isn't so I won't!

[neutral]

I would just like to say that Tristan seems to be the only one making sense on this forum.

[Gt_R]

The point of racing is to pass finishing line before everyone else, NOT giving ways to faster cars and wishing them well. Com'on whiners like DC, cut the **** and prove your point on the circuit...Not to the media...

[Ralf's Girl]

While I believe that TGF is a very talented driver, he can't keep doing this, within the rules or not. One of these days, he'll do it once too often and cause a serious accident. At Magny Cours, I didn't approve of his startline tactics, but the incident when DC was trying to pass him and started giving him the finger, he wasn't in the wrong because DC was on the outside line and there was probably no way he'd get by. But there are other ways to make a race exciting - like fighting your opponents fairly.

[ttc]

but the incident when DC was trying to pass him
and started giving him the finger, he wasn't in the wrong because DC was on the outside line
and there was probably no way he'd get by.

But you forgot that this was one of the incident pointed to by DC and gang that MS was driving "dangerously".

Did you see MS whine when DC beat him straight? Did MS push DC off when he realized that his car is not gonna pose a challenge to DC?

I view it as MS defending his position aggressively and DC not knowing WHEN to back off from his own challenge and thus put himself and the guy he's trying to overtake (MS in this case) in a dangerous position.

But I agree the swerve at the start is rather dangerous.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by ttc

I view it as MS defending his position aggressively and DC not knowing WHEN to back off from his own challenge and thus put himself and the guy he's trying to overtake (MS in this case) in a dangerous position.

I do agree that DC sometimes doesn't know when to back off from his own challenge - maybe this is part of his supposed 'hard racer' new image?

[Tristan]

....and what DC did this afternoon after getting a **** start was unfair now was it?? Is he a danger to other drivers?? Is HE suddenly going to be chastised by the media for that move at the start?? DC today weaved TWICE (not once TWICE) to block Schumi at the start which (imo) certainly contributed (not "caused", you may note, "contributed") to the first corner shunt. If DC continues with his "words of wisdom" he will loose a lot of respect in my book....

[Liz]

And of course you belive, Tristan, that TGF was a poor innocent lamb who bore no responsibility for the crash that took him off?

The problem with behaving like a wild man on the track, and getting away with it, is that now he has opened the barn door wide to other people doing the same thing he's doing - other people who can't get away with it and will make the racing very very dangerous as a result. This argument is a lot like the people who agitate others from a podium and then disclaim responsibility when someone acts on their urgings. (E.g. who says that certain people are 'criminals' and 'ought to be stopped' and then somebody shoots one of those people).

I don't care who does it. It's dangerous driving and it shouldn't be done. And in this case I am going to blame both the stewards who allowed TGF to get away with it, and all the pilotes behind who said to themselves, "Well if he can do it, I can do it!" and opened the door to carnage.