800 or 990, what's your verdict?

[Gerben24]

It’s the halfway of the season (already), so, what’s your verdict? Do you prefer the current 800cc format or was the 990cc era better? I know the comparison isn’t completely fair, because there is the new tyre rule you have to take into account and I also think the electronics are more important than ever.

So far we had good races in Mugello (until Rossi got into the lead), Barcelona (brilliant) and Assen. The other races were a bit boring (for Motogp standards) but I blame Stoner for that .

Last season we were really spoiled, there were so many good races, this season it will be very hard to beat that.

Again, I don’t know if it is the 800cc format that is to blame for the slightly boring races, but the 990cc where more spectacular. The current corner speed is so high, it requires an even more 250cc style. Last year we saw more rear wheel sliding. The current bikes don’t seem to be beasts (which Westy confirmed). For real beasts we should go back to 500cc 2 stroke though…

Having seen the 800cc at work this year I have to say that I thought the 990cc had a better sound. The 800s turn so much revs that it is almost sounding like a 2 stroke.

I also found last years Honda better to look at. I’m still not used at that rear section of the current one. The looks of the other bikes haven't changed that much.

Personally I didn’t find it necessary to go to the 800cc bikes, what’s your verdict?

[Knowlesy]

I don't care for the 800's much really. The racing is still good, but those 990's were just raw!

I miss them greatly.

[jhansen]

I vote 990's. I have the 2004 Mugello race saved on my computer and watched it. My goodness what a race! Even my wife commented, why can't the new bikes race this well? I think the 990's favored more of the riders to be honest. They were more beastly. And what a sound!

The new bikes corner amazingly quick. At several times this year I've marveled at their corner speed. But all the momentum type stuff has made the racing a bit dull along with the tire rules. However, it's the first year of the new bikes and rules. As the bikes develop the competition will get closer and hopefully the racing to. And we're starting to see a bit more sliding around.

I think the jump to the new rules was a bit premature. The 990's on a control tire (harder) would have been safe enough. But maybe if we ban TC for the 800's things would get a bit more interesting.

[Pro Racer]

i liked the 990cc a bit better the racing was abit more consistantly good but that could change next year when everyone has their bike on song, the 800cc rev to much and don't sound to great unlike the 990cc, but hey i'm happy with the 800cc the Aussies are winning although i had a soft spot for the 990cc.

[Hazza]

I didn't like the 990cc bikes at the end of their life. They were too fast, and I belive that in the long run, the quality of racing will be better with the 800ccs.

The key point is it's like the big-bang motor, it's taken the hoodoo out of alot of the machines. I actually think it's better that they don't do the gyrating "motogp squigle" out of the bends anylonger as they can actually use the power that they have and don't shed the rear tyre like they used to.

In summary: The 990s were beasts, where as the 800s are more manageable and will result in better racing.

[Hazza]

And as an addendum, in the "great" 990cc races between Rossi and Sete/Biaggi etc, they allways seemed to be a bit over the limit, and, I feel the 800s allow you to race within the limit, instead of plug around in 11th within the limit.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Gerben24

The current bikes don’t seem to be beasts (which Westy confirmed)

Yeah, 'cos he's really taken the fight to the front runners in his first two races finishing 11th and 9th...

[Gerben24]

This is what I meant:

Originally Posted by Anthony West

When I tested the ZX-RR, it felt right straight away: a lot easier to ride than I expected and the power's so smooth and easy to use.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcyc...acing-news.htm

But to react to your comment, he was a front runner in the wet in Donington (just check the practice results). In Assen during the race he had a good fight with some gutsy overtaking manoevres. He is doing better than Jacque. In my book that figures...

[chunder]

Haha Gerb, remember this is Aussie butt lick zone central, anything one of these riders says is taken to heart.

I actually the racing is better with the 800's, the grids are closer ands the teams have all closed up a bit.

But that is also mainly coz Bridgestone have found the right way to do their tyres more than KAwasaki, Suzuki or Ducati making better bikes.

the 500 days will always be the best days, the late eighties to early nineties were the golden age with lots of riders all a skill level above everyone else and duking it out.

Now you ony ever have one or two guys on a higher plane, much liek F1 in fact.

[Hazza]

*cough*

:mod:

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by chunder

But that is also mainly coz Bridgestone have found the right way to do their tyres more than KAwasaki, Suzuki or Ducati making better bikes.

well the Bidgestone was way back except for Stoner at Assen so i would say yes Bidgestone have been better just like Ducati has lifted their game, mostly down to tyres for the others lifting and Honda building a shocker.

[jhansen]

Personally I think Ducati got it right this year just as much as Bridgestone. I can't see Stoner having the same success on last year's Ducati. All the jouranlists that rode it after Valencia said it was definitely evil handling.

I think there is hope for the 800 class. Hopefully things tighten up as the bikes develop.

[chunder]

I agree Pro but you ahve to realise that the only reason Bridgey are good is because theya re married to Ducati, as they were to Ferrari in F1.
THe whole tyre has been made to work on the Dukes, yes they make bespoke tyres for everyone now, but they had a solus deal with Ducati, Itoh and Guareschi do more testing for them than any of the teams put togather, so it was clear that sooner or later they would get it right.
Stoner was the missing link but you could see hte progression last year, with Casey they have found a rider that needed a cossetting environment and has got it.
I still think that KAwa and Suzuki have made BIGGER improvemnts in their bikes than Ducati, and Michelin have been caught out!

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Hazza

And as an addendum, in the "great" 990cc races between Rossi and Sete/Biaggi etc, they allways seemed to be a bit over the limit, and, I feel the 800s allow you to race within the limit, instead of plug around in 11th within the limit.

A "bit over the limit" is just so much better though.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

A "bit over the limit" is just so much better though.

Thread complete, no more posts thank you.

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

A "bit over the limit" is just so much better though.

here here Knowlesy, when they are over the limit it is heart in mouth racing, will he keep it up right will the other guy have the balls to throw it down the inside etc, and the only evidence i have seen of this on the 800cc is at Catalunya, so hopefully once the transition period is over we will see that racing more often then not like on the 990cc.

[jhansen]

This definitely makes them sound less than over the limit:

Roger Lee Hayden on the Kawasaki ZX-RR: "I am still of the generation that when we think of GP or MotoGP bikes you think of a machine that is overpoweringly powerful. This was just the opposite. The bike is smaller than my 600 and such a nimble machine, a very controlled jet."

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Jul/070707at.htm

[Hazza]

To be fair, last time he said that they weren't that bad (on a 990) because of the electronics...

[f1manoz]

800s. Racing has been far better this season as a result of the change.

[Knowlesy]

I totally disagree. Last season with the 990's we had a terrific race each time out, we probably only had two bad races (relatively speaking).

This season, yes, the racing is still pretty darn good. But it's not at the level we were.

[jhansen]

I have to agree. Last year was mega.

[juicy sushi]

last year was better, but i don't know if that's solely down to the switch. i think next year, as the bikes will have matured, will be a better season, but at the same time, the over emphasis on corner speeds is frustrating. if the bikes were a bit less well-behaved, we would see something more spectacular no doubt, and possibly more action as the nastier bikes lead to more frequent small errors (which is what makes the racing better).

with the level of tire development and electronics, and the reduced power, the bikes seem to be a little too tame. perhaps making a change in tire rules could help. if the tires were required to be street legal/treaded, the manufacturers would still have open room for experimentation, but would be unable to provide the same grip, thereby making tire management a challenge (and thereby making nastier bikes).

they still wouldn't likely be as fun to watch as the WSBK guys, but it might help...

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

perhaps making a change in tire rules could help. if the tires were required to be street legal/treaded, the manufacturers would still have open room for experimentation, but would be unable to provide the same grip, thereby making tire management a challenge (and thereby making nastier bikes).

Are you Max Mosley?

[juicy sushi]

no, but i do remember watching the OLD formula extreme bikes in the US. 1000cc machines on treaded street tires made for some exciting racing...

[Gerben24]

I'm not familiar with the rules in the OLD extreme bikes class in the US, but how many tyre suppliers were there? In world Supersport they also use grooved tyres, but that is to cut costs.

If you would introduce grooved tyres in Motogp it would not change anything. The tyre suppliers would introduce something high-tech and expensive. There would still be a tyre that would just be a little better than the other (like this year the Bridgestone is better than the Michelin). This can spoil the racing quite a bit. Grooved tyres are for motocross anyway . A single tyre supplier might not be a bad thing (as we have in WSBK).

I still think those @##!!$@% electronics should be banned, as that is the biggest party pooper at the mo.