Chassis Questions -- 2005 an beyond...

[Tim Northcutt]

I know that this has been covered in many ways and on many occasions since the ACO released the "2004 Chassis Regs," but I want to make sure of a few things, and I know that all of you can help me out on this:

1. The ALMS has extended the rules and specs they raced this season (2004, which were really 2003 specs) through the 2005 season, thus a team that has a 2003 specs car can race it in the ALMS next year...

Correct?

2. Any chassis that was 2003 specs could compete for 2004 (w/smaller wing for LMES & Le Mans), but might face possible added weight or restrictors for 2005 at the discretion of the ACO...

Correct?

3. Any of the two above will no longer be "legal" to race in 2006 as they are currently configured, unlesss the ACO would grant dispensation for it to occur

Correct?

4. A "Hybrid" chassis (originally a 2003 specs car) with changes to conform with 2004 ACO specs (like Nasamax did) would be eligible through the 2006 season...but then must be replaced...

Correct?

5. Nasamax is the only "Hybrid" Chassis created thus far from a 2003 specs platform...

Is that Correct, or did Zytek do that, and for that matter, Welter Racing, do that as well for its LMP2????

6. The only 2004 specs LMP2s competing right now are the Courage C65 and the Lucchini that ran at Spa last weekend...

Correct??? Or is the WR a 2004 specs car??? Or is it a Hybrid???

7. Finally....

What is the difference between Creation's "DBA Zytek" and the other "Zytek 04S" cars that ran in the LMES this year???

(NOTE: This is why I am asking the "Hybrid" and "New Specs" quiestions above....but I would like to know more of the differences between the two....

especially since it is possible that some North American customers may come about for the Zytek next season...

Please give me a rundown on this so that I have it all straight...

It has been a while since we have discussed this, and I want to be sure I haven't mixed something up here...

Thanks!

[class4v]

Well Tim,
I've looking for the right answers also. Concerning the ACO rules in general for LMP ( 900 and 675) and LM GTP art 19 says :
Cars built before 01/01/2004 and completely complying with the ACO technical regulations for LMP and LM GTP
cars above, are admitted until 31/12/2005.However, the ACO wish to ensure the competitiveness of the cars built in compliance with the 2004 ACO
technical regulations for Prototype. Consequently, the ACO, in addition to the measures already applied and after
the first results of the new cars in racing conditions, will enforce in 2005 for the car built before 01/01/2004 a part
or all the following modifications :
− Minimum weight : 950 kg (LMP900), 720 kg (LMP675) ;
− Addition of a skid block : thickness 10 mm ;
− Reduction of the restrictor area by 5% ;
If necessary, additional measures could be applied.(cfr rule book ACO)

This means that in case the older cars would be more competitive than the new ones they will be more penalized ( for the moment restrictors, wing, fuel capacity (80 l for the older cars and 90 L for the spec 2004 cars), and weight)

So on your questions 1 and 2 the answer is yes, but for alms I think they were going to extend the period????

On your question 4 I have no answer.
For 5 : yes Nasamax is the only LMP 1 team with a hybrid car, Pesca will have a hybrid also for 2005 following the latest news. I 'm not sure about the WR

For 6 : the 2 you named is correct

For 7 : The difference between the DBA and Zytek is the time of manufacturing (2003 DBA (rights owned by a Danish person) Zytek = 2004 and they have the rights now. There's also I think a difference in weight between the 2 cars and the Zytek ( factory one ) has known more development ( suspension, other gearbox system, some aero) but both still compete under the 2004 LMP (900 - 675) rules.

Those are my answers at this stage and might not all be correct, I know...

[GT-Eins]

On question 6:
Lucchini claimed at Spa that they are the only fully legal LMP2 as the Courage is missing the 2nd full roll-hoop - which also applies to Welter in the moment.

Dont´t know wether this is correct: who can clarify wether Courage & WR are hybrids too???

[Tim Northcutt]

So if I bought a "Zytek 04S" it would be "eligible" only through the 2005 season, since it is built to the "pre-2004 ACO specs"???

Is that correct???

Which brings up two new questions:

1. Has anyone heard any news on what Zytek's plans...and more important, their timeline.... might be for unveiling, testing and ultimately selling a full "new ACO specs" chassis???

2. Will Zytek do what Lola is allegedly doing for B160 customers by crreating a "Hybrid" package they can use to convert what they have to get another year out of their chassis???

[paul-collins]

The Courage C65 and WR are both hybrids.

Essentially they have the same aero design limitations as a full-on 2004-spec car, except that the "reference plane" bottom is defined by the old tub, not a new one built to the '04 specs. Additionally, all safety structures (cockpit dimensions) are pre-'04, although they must put in the secondary rollover structure.

I'm surprised they didn't have to do the primary rollover structure for the passenger, as I would have thought that there would have been a drag penalty associated with it that would have been in the spirit of the hybrid rules.

Additionally, the tubs for the hybrids in P2 would have to be re-crashed, as they would have been tested at 675kg, not the new 750kg limit. (assuming they're of the right dimensions for the '04 rules)

As for the Zytek and the Lola B01/60s, they can be hybridized, but I'd assume it would be difficult to do it to P1 specs depending on the ability to shoehorn in a proper P1 engine. Remember, hybrids have to run at the weight of their class, and these cars were designed to run at significantly less weight (and less power, but similar ratio of the two) than the P900s.

That said, these cars could be hybridized into P2 using the same motors.

[Tim Northcutt]

I've gotten input and responses on everyting but question # 3:


3. Any of the 2003 specs cars that were grandfathered in will no longer be "legal" to race in 2006 as they are currently configured, unlesss the ACO would grant dispensation for it to occur

Correct?

The way I understand it, only a "hybrid" will be able to compete with the "New specs-built" chassis in 2006....unless the ACO would grant dispensation to do so....

and I don't see them doing it for a third season...they want the new cars racing....and that won't happen if they keep letting people use the old 2003 specs equipment...

Is that the way everyone else understands this, too???

[paul-collins]

The "current configuration" that you list - I assume you mean, either untouched 2003-spec for the ALMS, or as modified by the ACO rules for LM and LMES, correct?

In that case, yes, the current situation is that those cars - ie all cars built under the old rules, and not hybridized - are retired as of Dec 31 2005. Hybrids are retired as of Dec 31 2006.

I don't think you'll see any sort of derogation to allow those chassis to run yet another year. By then there should be a few decent options designed under the new rules...

[KWM]

2003 cars are only legal until the end of 2005 with the necessary restrictor and weight penalties.

In order to run to the end of 2006 the car must be either a hybrid which complies in every respect except chassis or a full LMP1 car.

In order to run beyond 2006 the car must be a full LMP1 car, at this point all old cars will be obsolete, but with a 3 year phase in period this shouldnt be a problem.

[Tim Northcutt]

That's waht I wanted to know....

and that's the way I understood it, too....

[FIRE]

http://www.kwmotorsport.com/14401.html

[MulsanneMike]

Originally posted by GT-Eins
On question 6:
Lucchini claimed at Spa that they are the only fully legal LMP2 as the Courage is missing the 2nd full roll-hoop - which also applies to Welter in the moment.

Dont´t know wether this is correct: who can clarify wether Courage & WR are hybrids too???

Yes, both the C65 and WR are hybrids as they are not compling with the LMP2 roll over protection rules 100%.

[Patrick B]

I thought the Hybrid chassis where only good through 2005...? Now there legal till the end of '06?

[Tim Northcutt]

sorry...double post

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
That's the way I've always understood the regs, but wanted to be sure....

The Hybrids have always had one additional year of eligibility...

My questions were equally focused on exactly which cars are "Hybrids" and which ones are not...

Thus, new "04" editions of Zyteks apparently are not built to the "new" ACO specs, and thus will not be eligible after the 2005 season...the "New" WR that seems to be a "hybrid"... the Nasamax that has been called a "hybrid" from Day One (made it rather simple for us, didn't it?)...and the Courage C65 that we were originally told IS a "2004 ACO specs" car, but Mike now tells us that it really IS a "Hybrid" because it has only one roll hoop...

From what I've gathered, the only "real" 2004 ACO specs compliant car that has raced is the Lucchini at Spa last weekend...

Everything else we have watched this year will either go away at the end of the 2005 season or at the end of 2006...

Of course, we do have the Lola on the horizon, and others probably in the works as well...

But it is nice to know which is which, and what falls where under the various "transition" guidelines....

[GT-Eins]

How do we have to define the Nasamax - does it have a future beyond 2006?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by GT-Eins
How do we have to define the Nasamax - does it have a future beyond 2006?

I do not believe it does, because I recall reading posts not too long ago where Nasamax was saying that they were looking to go the next step to build a "new specs" car...

[MulsanneMike]

The Nasamax is a Hybrid and Kireon Salter et al are working on a replacement

[marcush.]

the Zytek/DBA elgibilty issue will surely not help the sale of new cars.
The DBA was the first and only chassis Reynard build before
going into receivership.It was completed by JohnNielsens RN
Motorsport team ,and renamed in deference to their Sponsor DenBla Avis,DBA.
Team Creation have bought the car and developed it to what it is now.They have their own suspension ,aero etc developments as far as I know.And the car is quite a bit heavier than the works Zytek was scrutineered at LM.
Gearbox is basically the same but DBA uses Megaline shifter
(pneumatic)whereas Zytek uses purely electromagnetic actuation.They claim it is lighter.
Creation has no intnetion to convert the car to hybrid guise as far as I know.

[GT-Eins]

I heared before of roumors that either the Lister or the Dome could be also converted to Hybrids at least.

Is this true ?

[Fieldgate]

You could in theory convert any of the old LMP's to hybrid - but it would have a very short shelf-life now and is not cheap. It would be a tough (aka more money than sense) equation as to whether to run a heavier/restricted "old" LMP and buy a new format chassis as and when vs spend money/development/testing on a hybrid.

Back to the original questions that Tim raised - I have an additional one.

Now that the ALMS/ACO-LMES rules are due to diverge even further in 2005, will ALMS definitely kill off the current (maybe better named 2003 regulation) "old" LMP's at the end of 2005, or will it be their natural home in the future ?