Group B & Group S rally cars research

[TrevorC]

Hello all...

I'd like to create an archive and webpage of Group B and the aborted (cancelled) Group S rally cars from the 80's. In particular I am interested in the planned and projected cars such as the Audi Quattro S that was shown, but never competed. These and similar projects.

In addition to the Audi, I understand there was a projected Toyote MR2 Group S prototype, possibility a Ferrari. Obviously there was the Porsche Groupe B that developed into the 959 and ran the Paris-Dakar, according to the book Excellence was Expected, originally this was going to be a mid-engine car. Was there other stillborn projects??

I am looking for drawings, sketches, stylist conceptions, photos and other documentation. Even your freelanced interpretations or concepts would be welcome !!

Any links or referrals would be appreciated !!

Trevor
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

[John McIlroy]

Trevor,

I have recently researched a feature on Audi's mid-engined rally projects, including the 'Group S prototype' that currently resides in the firm's Ingolstadt museum, for a feature in a forthcoming issue of MotorSport here in the UK. Keep an eye out for it - it features some studio-lit photography of the 'Group S' prototype (there is reason to believe, since it features the full Sport Quattro E2 engine, that it had well over the 300bhp that would have been the norm for Group S, hence my slight scepticisim over its official name). The car, incidentally, was built at the same time as the mid-engined Sport Quattro lookalikes that were tested in Czechoslovakia.

John

[Anuauto]

For the sake of history, I hope such a site will dispell one general myth about "Group B" cars. At one time, almost anything on 4 wheels that could not achieve homologation in GroupN or GroupA was homologated into Group B, often as "automatic transfer" from the former Appendix J Groups. In some cases that included more than one version of the same car - following some initial confusion as to whether automatic transfer was of the standard car or the spec previously homolgated in Group1,2,3,4. Early Group B lists included such "exotics" as the Ford P100 Pickup, the MGB etc.

[TrevorC]

John....

Thanks for the information. What issue will your article be in ?? Motorsport can be hard to get here, but I will ask the store if they will do a hold for me.

I wasn't aware of the "mid-engined Sport Quattro lookalikes that were tested in Czechoslovakia". Where these an Audi project for Group B or from a privateer or similar ?? Will there be information about these in your article ?

One other reference I came across was a single line in one of the 944 sections of the new edition of Excellence was Expected. It mentioned that a Group B version of the 944 was considered. But that was all.

Somewhere in my reading I recall a reference to a possible Lada Group B or S project. I suspect it was about the time that Porsche was doing some consulting to Lada, but I've never found anything more about it. I wonder if the Lada Dakar vehicle was the outcome............

Was the still independent Skoda or Seat working on projects ??

Trevor
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

[John McIlroy]

Trevor,

The 'Group S' car that has been shown was one of two or three built away from Ingolstadt and, apparently, without the knowledge of the Audi management. It has only 12km on the clock (I know because I had a good poke around it and a photo of it is in the feature). I doubt it was ever tested, so it's actually a bit of a fancy red herring.

At the same time, Audi developed and tested a mid-engined version of the short-wheelbase Sport Quattro, using the Desna facility in Czechoslovakia. But during its first run with Walter Rohrl behind the wheel in Austria it was photographed and it was destroyed shortly afterwards. There is a photo of it in Desna in the article, though.

Both projects were official Audi Sport projects - although in the case of the 'Group S prototype' it was conducted in so much secrecy that not even Ferdinand Piech knew much about it! Both cars, incidentally, were fitted with the regular Sport Quattro engine, so they're not strictly Group S.

The article is in the May issue of Motor Sport, which I believe goes on sale in the next week or 10 days. Much more detail in there, including the thoughts of Rohrl.

Regarding Skoda and SEAT, I don't believe SEAT was working on a Group S car but a few years ago I was lucky enough to see an underground storage facility in the foundations of the old Skoda factory and there were several interesting-looking rally prototypes lying under dust sheets...

Toyota built at least two MR2 prototypes as well - one is in Cologne and one's in Tokyo, I believe. And didn't Mitsubishi try a four-wheel drive Starion Turbo around 1984/1985? That's another lost toy...

Hope this helps,

Regards,

John

[TrevorC]

Hello John....

Finally got a copy o the May Motorsport yesterday. Great article !!

It was very interesting to read about the mid-engine E's. And the Group S prototype was of great interest.... Are additional photographs available from the photographer ?

I do have a couple of follow-on questions also, shall I post them here or would you prefer to take them offline to email ??

Trevor

[John McIlroy]

Trevor,

The photographs were commissioned and paid for by MotorSport and Autosport combined. So I don't think they're likely to be available.

You can email follow-on questions to my work address - john.mcilroy@haynet.com

John

[JAG]

Heres an interesting articlle on the follow up to the Lancia Delta S4, the ECV1/2.

http://www.carsfromitaly.com/lancia/index.html



I also understand Austin Rover had a Group S version of the Metro 6R4 on the go which according to Cars & Car Conversions magazine had a 'radical' new engine.

I would have thought Ford would have had there Group S car on the drawing board as the RS200 EVO was already completed by the time Group B was banned.

And of course Peugeot would have had a car planned.

Heres the MR2:-



BTW, wasn't Group S menat to be limited to 300BHP. Yet with ever improving turbo technology they would have been putting out 500BHP+ even with the small (was it 1.3L max) turbo engines they were allowed.

[TrevorC]

Jag...

Thx for the information, links and photos.

In regards HP limits for Group S, I have seen no references to this, although that is not to say they didn't exist.

Given that the original Porsche plan was for a mid-engined car using the flat-6 it (according to a short reference in Vol II of Excellence was Expected, second edition) would seem that the 300-bhp is low. That said, the Dakar version of the 959 was detuned to produce less than 300-bhp, but that probably had more to do with the quality of the fuel available.

It is fun to speculate though !!

[neilwaynesmith]

I have a book called 'Rallying the four wheel drive revolution' which details various Group B monsters and one or two Group S spin-offs including the Vauxhall Astra / Opel Kadett.

I'm typing from memory, but I think it was written by Graham Robson (?) and is well worth a look.

[TrevorC]

Thx for the lead... I will try and track down a copy of it

[chunder]

You are right about Mitsubishi, they did indeed rally a 4WD Starion, it was used on the Hong Kong Beijing and crashed into a ouse if my memory serves me right.
Skoda did a car but it was just a more powerful and wider 130LR that a Czech guy turned up with at a Croft rallycross meeting a few years ago!
Opel had two cars I think, the 4S was supercharged and did a few rallies in Andrew Woods hands, plus it was mid engined with the engine far behind the front axle, then the one Joh Welch based his car on was the Paris Dakar machine using a Manta 400 engine.
Think I have seen piccies of a SEAT Ibiza that looked a bit racy, and some of the stuff Damseaux drove in South Africa was quite serious wasn't it!
Anyway if watched as much rallycross as I did in the late eighties, you could have seen where it was going and those cars on rally stages were silly!!

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by chunder

Opel had two cars I think, the 4S was supercharged and did a few rallies in Andrew Woods hands, plus it was mid engined with the engine far behind the front axle, then the one Joh Welch based his car on was the Paris Dakar machine using a Manta 400 engine.

There's some scans of a magazine article on the 4S on the MK2 Astra Owner's site, here - http://www.astra-mk2.com/forum/showt...1271#post11271
Quite a bit of info there, afraid I don't know where it was originally from. Rallied once in Wales. John Welch's car was one of two P-D car, apparently.

[Woolley]

The Astra was at Shelsley Walsh two(?) years ago for a demonstration run, so it still exists - even though the exhaust fell off and had to be repaired for the second day. Andrew Wood certainly ran it, and I remember seeing it on the Audi Sport rally in mid-Wales.

[Graham Clayton]

Here is an excellent overview of the various cars that competed in Group B:

http://www.autozine.org/strange_car/strange_60.htm

[chunder]

Saw this thread at the footer of another.

Not sure of anyone was aware, but Walter drove the second Audi Group S prototype at the recent big historic rally in Germany, I forget it's name.

The car was the swoopy looking white car, not the rather boxy version. Not sure of it's spec now or then. Think it was in the museum for years?

It has presumably been restored much like the ECV was a few years back by enthusiasts.

And thankfully, Audi like BMW and Porsche seem very proud of their heritage, unlike British manufacturers!!

Don't think Walter was giving it berries but he was also out in the original Pikes Peak car too, with another fake replica there also.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by chunder

And thankfully, Audi like BMW and Porsche seem very proud of their heritage, unlike British manufacturers!
.

Hmm, you might think so. Audi are delighted to trumpet their quattro rally and race history but you try getting parts to keep an original quattro on the road. They aren't interested.

[Farfoulin]

I'm not sure how far the OP's endeavour might have gone but an online Group B encyclopedia has since been created by somebody else. It features tons of info about both Group B and Group S. It's by far the best source of information for those topics that I was able to find! It'd be really tough to match it...

RALLY GROUP B SHRINE

[Fatgadget]

Originally Posted by andy97

Hmm, you might think so. Audi are delighted to trumpet their quattro rally and race history but you try getting parts to keep an original quattro on the road. They aren't interested.

These guys..MAT http://www.mat.fi/projects/65
seem to keep old rally quattros up and running!