The theory that road racing requires more talent than oval racing

[Joe Fan]

When I visit other bulletin boards, I frequently see posts from the road racing crowd who claim that road racing requires much more talent than oval racing. However, Tony Stewart won Sears Point (one of the toughest tracks on the Winston Cup circuit) in only his fifth start ever on a road course and Ryan Newman finished second today at The Glen in only his second start on a road circuit in his young career. And there were accomplished road racers in each of these events.

Both of these guys are great talents that grew up racing sprint cars on half mile oval tracks. This coupled with the fact that former Formula One test driver Tomas Scheckter has crashed out in quite a few races in his IRL rookie season, and with fomer Trans-Am/CART driver Scott Pruett's and Robby Gordon's lackluster rookie seasons driving on Winston Cup oval circuits a few years back, it kind of shoots holes a bit in this theory doesn't it?

[muggle not]

I tend to believe that each of the different types of racing requires its own unique driving skills. I find it difficult to claim that one requires more skill than the other. Another thing to take in consideration when a driver from one series drives one or two races in a different series is the quality of the new team, equipment, etc.

Whatever ones belief it is difficult to argue the success of : Mario Andretti

He won a remarkable 109 races over a career that spans five decades. He's won the Daytona 500, the Indianapolis 500, the Formula One World Championship and the CART Series title, which he captured in 1984. He's been named Driver of the Year in a remarkable three different decades and was also selected as Driver of the Century in the year 2000.

Now, he is one driver that I believe had ALL THE TALENT!

[Lee Janotta]

Hmm... Let's see... Okay, first off, I think oval and road racers are both very skilled at their own disciplines, but I think typically, it's easier for road racers to translate their skills to ovals than oval drivers to translate their skills to road racing. But, here's one discipline that's never brought up: dirt.

Tony Stewart and Ryan Newman both learned most of their racecraft on small dirt ovals, tailsliding and drifting their way around, learning excellent car control. Jimmy Johnson and Robby Gordon both learned to race in enormous off-road trucks, skills Robby showed also translated extremely well to sports car and open-wheel road racing. I can't think of any category of auto racing Robby hasn't won a race in, except World Rally... Which I'd love to see him do, if GM ever enters. Rick Mears has won as many Indy 500s as anyone, and started out racing those same huge trucks, though many years before Robby and Jimmy.

As Muggle pointed out, Mario Andretti's often considered the most complete, if not the most skillful driver ever, and guess where he started out? Dirt.

My belief is that the car control skills, the sense of balance, and the connection with the car you must develop to succeed on a loose surface translate to all other types of driving.

One thing that can't be denied is that at Indy at least, road racers have made a mess of the oval-centric field in recent years. Jacques Villeneuve, Juan Pablo Montoya, Helio Castroneves... All guys with barely pronounceable names who cut their teeth on go-karts, and made their careers driving Formula cars on road courses around the world.

As for today's race... Tony Stewart drove an excellent race, and deserved that win... Robby Gordon cheated himself, I think, by laying back for so long.... He needed to start pushing with 30 to go. The cautions really hurt him, though, as it would take him a full lap after a restart to catch back up to the car in front.

Y'know, as long as Winston Cup has two road courses a year... Why the heck not two dirt ovals?

[rustyfan]

If there was a dirt oval with a 100,000+ seating capacity in a relatively untapped market, I think there would at least be a slim chance NASCAR would be interested

[muggle not]

Robby also hurt himself on the pit stop. He couldn't get the car out flawlessly. No question in my mind that Tony deserved the win today.

Adding dirt ovals to the WC schedule is probably not in the cards due to all the difficulties involved. However, it would be a simple matter to add a couple more "road tracks" to the schedule. I would love to see Road America and Laguna Seca (my favorite)on the schedule. Then, of ourse, there is also Mid Ohio and Virginia International Raceway and how about a race in Canada at Mosport!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
When I visit other bulletin boards, I frequently see posts from the road racing crowd who claim that road racing requires much more talent than oval racing. However, Tony Stewart won Sears Point (one of the toughest tracks on the Winston Cup circuit) in only his fifth start ever on a road course and Ryan Newman finished second today at The Glen in only his second start on a road circuit in his young career. And there were accomplished road racers in each of these events.

As far as accomplished road racers, there was Robby Gordon (who had a shot, reading previous comments) and Boris Said at the Glen. Who else?

Add Ron Fellows at Sears Point (whose car let him down). Ron was a real threat at Sears in 2001 until a bad pit stop followed by Bill Elliot putting him in the wall.

After all, somebody has to win the race. You put 41 oval racers and 2 road racers, what are the odds? Particularly in Boris' case, he would not be as familiar with the equipment as the regulars, and the hockey-puck tires they run would be massively different from what he's used to.

Actually, the tires' lack of suitability for road racing would really lend credence to the theory that dirt-trackers would be strongest running NASCAR on road courses.

Now, put all these boys in Trans-Am cars, we'd see how the road racers would do.

[rustyfan]

PJ Jones (finishing 4th) and Scott Pruett (finishing 6th) should most certainly be included into the group of road racers that had a shot at it at the Glen.

[paul-collins]

That's true. Also, Justin Bell didn't qualify (but he's a WC neophyte, more used to GT cars and Trans-Am).

[BootsOntheSide]

You can't really use Sears Point and Wadkins Glen as evidence of road racing being easier. Hardly any of the NASCAR regulars have any real road racing experience, so its inevitable that the results will throw up statistics like the Stewart / Newman ones Joe mentions.

Definately, Pruett and Robbie Gordon didn't impress in their rookie seasons, but they had to get used to the cars as well as the tracks (both had driven CART ovals for many years of course, as recently as 1999 Pruett took an oval pole at Fontana). As Lee pointed out, if you've driver single seater cars similar to those in CART, and are used to the road course element of the series, adapting to ovals is not a tough job for guys like Villeneuve, Castro Neves or Montoya, all of whom would be right at home in F1.

All the same, I doubt that there is any driver out there who could match Mario's allround skill- on road course and ovals of all types, in single seaters, sprots cars and stock cars. Not Schumacher. Not Jeff Gordon. Not Montoya. Not Da Matta. Not Stewart. No one.

[O'Schumacher]

Well Joe Fan, you are absolutely correct, Tony Stewart & Ryan Newman do have talent in road racing. It's just such a pity that their talents are wasted on turning left for 36 weekends of the year.

[muggle not]

Originally posted by O'Schumacher
Well Joe Fan, you are absolutely correct, Tony Stewart & Ryan Newman do have talent in road racing. It's just such a pity that their talents are wasted on turning left for 36 weekends of the year.

Whoa there O'Schumacher......I am a devoted road racing fan and our team raced in the Trans Am series in season 2000.....HOWEVER, even I would not go so far as to say that Stewart's and Newman's talents are being wasted in WC. They are both great drivers, especially Tony, and WC may just be the most competitive racing today.

[Lars]

Originally posted by O'Schumacher
Well Joe Fan, you are absolutely correct, Tony Stewart & Ryan Newman do have talent in road racing. It's just such a pity that their talents are wasted on turning left for 36 weekends of the year.

& yet it is by their choice that they drive stock cars...wonder why? More fame in it? Money? Fan base?

[muggle not]

Originally posted by Lars
& yet it is by their choice that they drive stock cars...wonder why? More fame in it? Money? Fan base?

LARS....The correct answer to your question would be:
1.More fame in it.
2.The money.
3.The fan base.

[Russfeld]

NASCAR is the path of least resistance, plus the US is an oval-centered nation when it comes to racing.

Road Racing is about the driver and his skill. Ovals are about racecraft. An oval is not technically difficult to drive, and the biggest factor in speed is the car and its setup, in may ways the driver is riding around

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Russfeld
Road Racing is about the driver and his skill. Ovals are about racecraft.

I like your characterization.

Racecraft can be seen in bicycle races, too (olympic velodrome races, where they try to psych each other out for 80% of the race, going slow slow slow, then bursting into full flight).

Taking it further, any series that wants to showcase racecraft will try to equalize the vehicles to maximise the human component. A series that wants to accentuate driving performance may try to show driver skills, or may try to showcase engineering. Either way works to show how well a driver-and-car can run a technical course.

A classic example of a series identifying with technical performance is WRC. They've even taken traffic out of the equation (more or less).