[BTCC] Seat SupaCopa Cars & BTCC

[andy97]

Just thinking out loud really, for no particular reason but, seeing as BTCC has now gone down the route of 2 litre turbocharged engines, how far away from BTCC spec are the Seat Supercopa cars? ie could someone buy a Supercopa car and convert it to BTCC spec for an "affordable" (cough, its all realtive) BTCC car for a privateer to buy almost off the shelf.

[touring fan01]

No. The new spec's are a miles away from those Leons. They would be too small, for a start.

[privateer]

well I think you could at the moment get one through but you would have to change the gearbox and put it on 17inch Wheels then say its localy homolagated . Also put it on GAS
Can never understand why NGTC went with a 10 yearold Vauxhall unit with Swindon when you can buy the Seat engine complete with turbo etc for 6700 euro brand new sealed at 301 bhp from seat spain and a rebuild is 1400 euros at seat sport

[andy97]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

No. The new spec's are a miles away from those Leons. They would be too small, for a start.

Not sure I agree on the size issue. The Seat Leon Mk2 is racing in WTCC events to Super 2000 Spec (and has run in the BTCC before in S2000 spec) & S2000 spec cars are still allowed in BTCC.

There probably are several technical reason why it can't be done but I think I prefer Privateer's answer!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by privateer

well I think you could at the moment get one through but you would have to change the gearbox and put it on 17inch Wheels then say its localy homolagated .

Not beyond the whit of man though is it? And the shell etc is already developed & there are loads to buy off the shelf. Local homologation is exactly what the new rules for BTCC mean.

Originally Posted by privateer

Also put it on GAS

You mean petrol? The SuperCopa cars are Petrol.

Originally Posted by privateer

Can never understand why NGTC went with a 10 year old Vauxhall unit with Swindon when you can buy the Seat engine complete with turbo etc for 6700 euro brand new sealed at 301 bhp from seat spain and a rebuild is 1400 euros at seat sport

Does not stop VAG developing their own engine, though. Think of the economies of scale if they offered it for VW (Passat/ Bora), Audi (A4), Seat (Leon Cupra), Skoda (Oktavia)

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by andy97

Not sure I agree on the size issue.

The new BTCC rule is a minimum 4.4m length. So the Leon will be too short!

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

Can never understand why NGTC went with a 10 yearold Vauxhall unit

Its not a 10 year old unit. Its the latest direct injection all alluminium unit.
You must be getting confused with the old Vauxhall engine they use in the Chevrolets.

[duke_toaster]

Surely reducing the minimum weight and fiddling around with the rev limits would make it possible to run normal Leon Supercopa machinery against S2000/NGTC cars like they do/did in Portugal?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Surely reducing the minimum weight and fiddling around with the rev limits would make it possible to run normal Leon Supercopa machinery against S2000/NGTC cars like they do/did in Portugal?

They are nearly 3 seconds a lap slower than BTCC cars at Oulton for example and it would cost too much to try and bring those cars up to speed. No point trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

The new BTCC rule is a minimum 4.4m length. So the Leon will be too short!

But the SEAT Leon is homologated to S2000 & they are allowed to race alongside NGTC cars until 2013.

Seeing as Alan Gow introduced the new regs as a stand alone series, he could easily allow in the Seat SuperCopa cars with appropriate mods (whheel size, gearbox if necessary), based on the fact that the car already exists & would be available to buy relatively cheaply, & has a racing pedigree in S2000.

Surely he wouldn't want to turn down some more cars on the grid?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by andy97

But the SEAT Leon is homologated to S2000 & they are allowed to race alongside NGTC cars until 2013.

Seeing as Alan Gow introduced the new regs as a stand alone series, he could easily allow in the Seat SuperCopa cars with appropriate mods (whheel size, gearbox if necessary), based on the fact that the car already exists & would be available to buy relatively cheaply, & has a racing pedigree in S2000.

Surely he wouldn't want to turn down some more cars on the grid?

Not as easy as you seem to think. The cars are way off the pace of the current BTCC cars and it would cost the teams an arm and a leg to develop them up to the speed of the BTCC cars! They would have to develop and upgrade their engine, gearbox, suspension, brakes, bodywork etc. It would be cheaper to just buy an old S2000 Leon.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

They are nearly 3 seconds a lap slower than BTCC cars at Oulton for example and it would cost too much to try and bring those cars up to speed. No point trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!

How much of that is down to differences in Tyres?

Brands GP last year - Seat Euro Cup fastest lap - 1 min 35.0; BTCC fastest lap 1 min 33.9

Just over a second. Not that far away.

[privateer]

Ah but the uk ones were 3 seconds a lap slower because btcc would not let them go as quick as the Spanish ones. A spanish spec Supercopa would match todays touring car pace easily if fitted with the same gearbox dont forget they use the ultra slow changing DSG.
They do a complete season easily in spain without a rebuild or turbo etc

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

Ah but the uk ones were 3 seconds a lap slower because btcc would not let them go as quick as the Spanish ones. A spanish spec Supercopa would match todays touring car pace easily if fitted with the same gearbox dont forget they use the ultra slow changing DSG.
They do a complete season easily in spain without a rebuild or turbo etc

Why do you think the WTCC or the Swedish or the Danish don't have them running in that series either? They all need the competitors.

Its because the cars are a long way from S2000 specs. Just because a car could do the same lap time doesn't mean it should be in the same category! A Ginetta G50 does similar lap times but that doesn't mean it should race with S2000 cars either.

Like I said previously; square peg and round hole.

[privateer]

You obviously do not understand the Rules !!

A Supercopa is a 2 ltre TURBO charged engine so its not allowed in the WTCC or swedish or danish or the BTCC for that matter.

Technicaly cannot be done this year as the only turbo engine in the BTCC is the NGTC engine unless you are AON or running on GAS.

Also WTCC runs to FIA S2000 spec not the mickey mouse btcc version

[GroupOfOne]

Originally Posted by privateer

Can never understand why NGTC went with a 10 yearold Vauxhall unit with Swindon

Ok so that's the decision TOCA made, but that's only the TOCA supplied NGTC engine though. Nothing to stop other teams or engine suppliers going their own way. From the interview with Swindon Racing Engines on TCT

"Teams can still develop their own NGTC engine if they don’t want to use this one, so there is no change in teams being involved in developing their own engines."

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=4577

[privateer]

Not this year you cannot!

And there are no regulations issued yet for next season but am aware you may be allowed to develop your own turbo unit next season

[GroupOfOne]

Oh right hadn't realised you couldn't this year. Though I suppose that follows if you've not actually confirmed the regs. Does give Swindon a bit of a head start on everyone else doesn't it...

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

Also WTCC runs to FIA S2000 spec not the mickey mouse btcc version

Explain?

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by privateer

Not this year you cannot!

And there are no regulations issued yet for next season but am aware you may be allowed to develop your own turbo unit next season

How come Mountune have developed the NGTC-spec gas turbo for Arena this year?

[privateer]

The FIA are very strict with there rules if its not homolagated you cannot have it ie if the front bumper was homolagated in carbon you cannot race with a glass fibre one all modifications to the original homolagation have to seek approval from the FIA. BTCC do as you like as long as you tell them what you have done!

And the proof to this is the Arena focus turbo engine it stated in the regulations the only turbo engine in 2010 would be the NGTC so arena realy are taking the p..s and many teams are not happy but they will get away with it because they are big team lots of money and make big noises so they can have it.They use the green energy scam but look at the calor advertising on the car its miniscule now if 50% of the car was devoted to calor advertising they may have a chance of justifying it but its a p..s take and everyone knows it.
Realy someone should come out with an old ex BTCC RS500 running on chicken s..t bet it would get in!!!

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

The FIA are very strict with there rules if its not homolagated you cannot have it

Sorry but thats just pure rubbish!

How many WTCC cars are not running with extra waivers or dispensations and are running strictly to their FIA homologation?

I'll save you the trouble. Only one. The BMW. And I think they have had waivers in the past, as well.
Every other car in the WTCC is not running strictly to their FIA homolgation and are competing with all sorts of additional waivers and dispensations!

So, very bizarrely, most of the cars competing in the FIA's very own World Championship do not compete strictly in accordance with the car's own FIA's homologation! Sort of blows your stance out of the water, doesn't it?

[privateer]

So you are saying the WTCC is a total free for all as in the BTCC??

Yes it has its waivers which agree are a joke but they are agreed at FIA level for whats that worth?

Not realy trying to make a STANCE just explaining some facts to forum members who are un aware of the rulings.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by privateer

Ah but the uk ones were 3 seconds a lap slower because btcc would not let them go as quick as the Spanish ones.

It wasn't the BTCC that wouldn't let them, but SEAT: They didn't want the single-make Leons to be faster than their Touring Car, so they added restrictors.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by privateer

So you are saying the WTCC is a total free for all as in the BTCC??

No. I'm not.
I'm saying the WTCC is much worse and there is plenty of hard evidence to prove it.

Don't you remember all the ongoing arguments and complaints about all the ridiculous waivers and changes they allowed just about every car to have? If I remember right the Lacetti was given something like 14 waivers and dispensations. Thats 14 changes from the FIA's own homologation and regulations in one car alone! Even the engine was not from a Chevrolet!

For you to say that the FIA (WTCC) stay strictly to their homologation and "if its not homologated you cannot have it" is beyond belief.

Originally Posted by privateer

Yes it has its waivers which agree are a joke but they are agreed at FIA level for whats that worth?

You don't see the irony in that do you? So its OK for a car not to meet the FIA regulations in an FIA championship as long as the FIA say so? Somehow you think thats acceptable but its not acceptable for other championships like the BTCC or STCC to do the same?