LPG Fire

[mark_l]

Touring cars get gas entry

The Green Flag British Touring Car Championship will feature a gas-powered car for the first time this season.
The LPG-powered Honda Civic will be entered by Mardi Gras Motorsport and driven by John George.

"We are now probably the only touring car championship in the world that is open to petrol, diesel and gas-powered cars," said series boss Alan Gow.

"Mardi Gras' entry is certainly going to capture the imagination and is extremely welcome on our grid."


Taken from BBC website

How would you fight an LPG fire or leakage?

[bluebeard]

having run a road car for some time on lpg if the system if fitted properly as soon as a leak occurs a valve in the storage cylinder (tank) shuts off therefore preventing any leakage therefore nothing to burn! presumably the tank should be fitted in a location to prevent rupture? if not what steps to take...... large ones in the opposite direction!

[peter195001]

couple years ago in the vectra one make surport race with BTTC was lpg powered (and surprise sponsered) calor gas MSA think there safe is MUST BE TRUE

[Alan Green]

IIRC This was discussed in some depth at training sessions when the Vectra challenge announced it's LPG entry. There are multiple safety valves and auto shut offs in the system, making an explosion a very, very slim chance. The tanks (on the Vectra's at least) were protected, and centrally mounted, so it would have to be a very large impact for something to rupture the tank.

[It's been some time since this was last discussed, so apologies if the information is duff, and fair play Honda for having a go at it in the top tin-top formula.]

Al.

[digger]

Originally posted by Alan Green
IIRC This was discussed in some depth at training sessions when the Vectra challenge announced it's LPG entry. There are multiple safety valves and auto shut offs in the system, making an explosion a very, very slim chance. The tanks (on the Vectra's at least) were protected, and centrally mounted, so it would have to be a very large impact for something to rupture the tank.

Having had experience of driving trains carrying around 1500 tons 0f LPG we were told to rapidly evacuate the area as all the fire service could do was cool the tanks until the gas burnt off,Burning Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE's) are spectacular,large and usually fatal, if the tank ruptures then run like hell.
LPG will times itself by 40% when contact is made with air.

[Chigley]

Burning Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE's) are spectacular,large and usually fatal, if the tank ruptures then run like hell.

And the MSA have sanctioned, or are considering sanctioning this.:confused: :confused: :confused:
Someone remind me to get my head re-examined if I go anywhere near one of these meetings if Honda actually go ahead.
There again after this weekend there can't be anything in my head so I guess its carry on as usual.

[EvilPumpkin]

What's the recommended media for fighting a gas fire?

[Tim Falce]

The odd thing is that if there is a fire that involves any form of gas cylinder, the area around for 200 metres is evacuated for 24 hours. Will this happen at a race track.

[digger]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
What's the recommended media for fighting a gas fire?

Keep the tank cooled with a continuous flow of water until the gas burns off and the tank cools - 24 hours is normal.
There is no way of extinguishing this fire and it must be left to burn off

[mark ch]

I read somewhere they were using removal tanks too so they didn't have refuel on circuit.. Must be a interest mounting arrangement as fuel (weight) is normally postioned as low and central as possible.... and with the rollcages nowadays crossmeber galore... Suppose have to wait a see how it all works and trust the MSA.....

[JimW]

I think that we need to have a sense of proportion here. There are thousands of cars, SUVs and light vans bimbling around the roads of the UK without any significant problems being reported, never mind millions of caravans cluttering up the same roads while carrying one or two LPG cylinders.

Particularly on race circuits the problem should be a doddle. If gas catches fire, put it out with a dry powder. Cool the bits and pieces with foam. Look for the isolating devices and operate them. Have a cup of coffee and reflect on a job well done. If it was really warm, wake up a fire tender and get them to cool the tank.

If you leave the fire to burn for a long time and the various cut-off devices don't work (and remember that petrol tanks don't have these), then you will get the gas tank overheated. The tank has a "bursting disk" which will release the gas quickly (and hence have a bigger fire for several seconds).

This is to avoid the tank bursting and the possibility of a BLEVE situation which someone referred to above. (A bleve is truely spectacular and running will do you no good unless you are already hundreds of yards away and feel like another hundred yards would be a good idea. Think fuel air bomb. )

But the good news is BLEVEs are for tankers or railroad waggon loads or large house/shop tanks. The little tanks on cars can swap a large fire (and then only if circumstances let it cook for quite a time) for the danger of an explosion.

So the only time we have really to think about the flaring off of gas is on a rally. On a film I saw (some years ago) the resultant blaze was certainly no worse than the "explosion" of a petrol tank.

Regards

Jim

[bluebeard]

Originally posted by JimW
I think that we need to have a sense of proportion here. There are thousands of cars, SUVs and light vans bimbling around the roads of the UK without any significant problems being reported, never mind millions of caravans cluttering up the same roads while carrying one or two LPG cylinders.

[bluebeard]

sorry folks meant to add to that........... sorry about going off thread a bit but must object to your quote of caravans cluttering the roads! as a regular caravanner I get fed up with getting stuck behind cars so who's doing the cluttering!

[Tim Falce]

Whether the cylinders are in caravans or anywhere else they still present a danger when exposed to excessive heat.
Once a petrol fire is put out it is not a danger whereas a gas cylinder will be a danger until it cools down.

[sss]

i have had the pleasure of watching a dual fuel car burning, and there was nothing different to any other car fire i have been to, so far...........

[SJC-214]

Originally posted by bluebeard
sorry folks meant to add to that........... sorry about going off thread a bit but must object to your quote of caravans cluttering the roads! as a regular caravanner I get fed up with getting stuck behind cars so who's doing the cluttering!

Yes but your just a mad b.....d

I'm remember a few years ago travelling back from the GP at Silverstone, had to do 90 just to get past you and that caravan

[ysofast]

lpg is big here in western Canada as they virtually give it away so count me in. My old pickup burns it and the safety is two steps up on gasoline. Here anyway there must be vacuum to turn on the fuel and if there is any big leak it shuts down strait away. The 350 litre tank in my truck could probably be in a fire for quite a while before it would blow off the release valve. What would be burning all the while I don't know? Btw lpg has an equivelant octane of 103 to 110 depending on the time of year here so your compression could go up

[Paul Millard]

i had a look at the civic today and the tank is in the middle of the car behind the driver it is well secured.
paul

[tangoed sparky]

I think that its cool (no pun intended) The other drivers will avoid it like the plage and the driver will have an advantage over the others being scared. So that should counter act the fact the LPG is not quite as powerful as petrol. Then again I don't think that there is a BTCC driver that would care less if it stud between him and a point it would still get punted off.

[Dutch chap]

Particularly on race circuits the problem should be a doddle. If gas catches fire, put it out with a dry powder. Cool the bits and pieces with foam. Look for the isolating devices and operate them.

Jim, I'm not sure if I get your point, but are you really suggesting to put out the fire first and then have a look if you can shut down the flowing out of the LPG? And what will happen if you can not shut it down? This could lead to a very nasty explosion! The only way to make an end to a LPG fire (in the case that valves aren’t automatically closed) is to stop the gas coming out by closing the main valve. And believe me, as a former professional fire fighter in a country where LPG is quite common I know what I’m talking about.

From that experience, now that I’ve mentioned it, I must add that I never experienced a LPG fire in (road) cars leading to an explosion of the tank. And a BLEVE will not happen with a LPG tank in a car, simply because the tank is to small to get overheated before you run out of gas (for the religious among us: thank God for that; you don’t want to be near a BLEVE).

One tip: if you ever come in the situation that the LPG is pouring out and there is NOT a fire (yet): drain a shirt or whatever with water end put it over the tube/tank that is leaking. The gas will probably freeze it on the tube/tank and therefore stop the leaking. If this doesn’t work: run like hell because an explosion is about to occur.

Remember: it will be the vapour exploding, not be the tank.

[Stevespurr]

Have seen the damage and the distance a 15kg cylinder can travell when involved in a fire not a very plesent site.

[Dutch chap]

Sorry, wrong language again : where I mentioned TANK I meant CYLINDER

[Dutch chap]

Have seen the damage and the distance a 15kg cylinder can travell when involved in a fire not a very plesent site.

Steve, I know from my own experience what you mean. I was around several times when these things went flying past. And I still thank one of my mates in the FD for shouting ‘DOWN’ when a cylinder came my way. When you’re 6 ft 5” like I am “down” means act NOW or ‘have a problem’ with these things coming your way at 3 ft height. Damn those caravan winter parkings!