Best Drivers...?

[helterskelter]

By 2 wins out of 2 for Muller in the TDi I mean that he scored 2 wins in 2007, all of them on a TDi. Also, if I still can count decently, I see 3 podiums in 10 attempts (2 wins in Monza race 1 and Oschersleben race 1 and a 3rd in Brands Hatch) against 2 podiums in 14 attempts with the Tfsi. Also, you get 2 wins and a 3rd with the TDi and no wins, a 2nd and a 3rd. 42 points out of 81 (which is more than 50%) made with the TDi in 10 races against 41 scored in 14 races with the Tfsi. So you can hardly question that the TDi was better than the Tfsi.
The fact that Andy has had more practice on the wet is completely arbitrary, you mentioned that Augusto is brazilian so he's obviously less experienced in the wet, but look at Senna, he learned on go karts in Brazil to race on a wet track and look at how much of a legend he is! I honestly think it's more about talent...
Priaulx-Farfus: Again, you can't look at qualifying performance and best laps: when you constantly have at least 20kgs less of ballast because you do the fastest lap and then you crash, so you don't have enough results to have the ballast on your car, you can easily do the best lap and the pole position and be better on a single lap. A champion is not only seen on the laptime but during a whole race. You can't say it's about maturity, come on, Augusto is entering his 6th season, I think (if you consider Etcc, too). I think the problem is, he's a super quick driver but he doesn't have the personality of a champion: he's nice, whenever I talk to him I crack up laughing, I really like him, but the difference with Priaulx is in the head and in the talent you need to use your brain while racing, which is not easy.

[awrb]

People said Massa would never mature though, he took his time but did. I think Farfus needs to learn fast though because, he may be quick, but he just isn't getting enough results.

The TDi was much better than the TFSi. thats a fact. And Muller did a great job with it, adapting to a new, very different car which drives tottally different to anything seen in TC before. he got the job done in a good car, so is a very worthy champion.

[helterskelter]

Yes, I agree he is a worthy 2008 champion, not his fault if the rules gave him the best car in the field. On the other hand, Priaulx was a worthy 2007 champion!
As for Farfus, I think Massa, just like him, had so much time to get mature. And anyway Massa has to face Hamilton, a guy who is super fast and a worthy 2008 champion but often makes mistakes. As far as I remember, people like Hill, Alonso and Priaulx are a totally different kind of driver compared to Massa (and Farfus). Also, Formula 1 is a much different thing compared to Wtcc, it's more of a contact sport and the chance of making mistakes while fighting for position is higher. Let Massa come to Wtcc and then we'll see! (and it would be the same if a Wtcc driver had to go to Formula 1, though Priaulx did drive a BMW Williams after the 2005 season, it had to be a one day test but the Williams guys were so impressed that they called him back quite a bit of times, constantly, throughout the 2006 season)

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

By 2 wins out of 2 for Muller in the TDi I mean that he scored 2 wins in 2007, all of them on a TDi. Also, if I still can count decently, I see 3 podiums in 10 attempts (2 wins in Monza race 1 and Oschersleben race 1 and a 3rd in Brands Hatch) against 2 podiums in 14 attempts with the Tfsi. Also, you get 2 wins and a 3rd with the TDi and no wins, a 2nd and a 3rd. 42 points out of 81 (which is more than 50%) made with the TDi in 10 races against 41 scored in 14 races with the Tfsi. So you can hardly question that the TDi was better than the Tfsi.

2007 had 11 weekends and 22 races (2008 added Japan), so the total of 24 races in your calculations for sure seems weird for me. I think you need to recheck your numbers. Also a quick glance at the numbers for last 5 events I see the following placements 6-0 -- 1-5 -- 4-5 -- 1-5 -- 0-0 so 2 podiums. I suspect you forgot the fact that Colin Turkington finished ahead of Muller in his BTCC BMW in both Brands races. Colin not being eligible for WTCC points (non holomogated gearbox was it?) doesnt change that he finished ahead in the race itself, and Im pretty sure it was Colin standing on the podium, not Muller.

The fact that Andy has had more practice on the wet is completely arbitrary, you mentioned that Augusto is brazilian so he's obviously less experienced in the wet, but look at Senna, he learned on go karts in Brazil to race on a wet track and look at how much of a legend he is! I honestly think it's more about talent...

Yes, Senna was special. I saw an an interview once where he explained why he was so good at wet racing. Early in his gokart days he had lost a wet race because he was horribly bad at racing in the wet. Senna, the perfectionist as he was, got so disappointed and mad at himself that he vowed not ever to repeat that day. Thus he literally went out and raced his kart every single day it was raining, hour after hour, year after year. So it was most certainly an acquired skill, from years of dedicated training.

You can't say it's about maturity, come on, Augusto is entering his 6th season, I think (if you consider Etcc, too).

1) He is still just 25 years old, Priaulx took his first ETCC win when he was 30... Huff, that is just now starting to show consistency, is 29... everybody else at the top is well over 30. 2) He has hot fiery S American blood, not slow contemplating NE European. He is an amazing driver talent, and Im sure he will start to really show it in the next few years. In fact, if there is anyone in WTCC today that I see could match Priaulx 3 (essentially 4) WTCC (ETCC) crowns in the next 10-15 years, it would be Farfus.

[helterskelter]

The Brands Hatch thing doesn't matter, Colin Turkington was there as a wild card, and what matters is the points: had Muller won the championship for the points he acquired by not counting Turkington, would you have said it was unfair because he wasn't actually standing on the podium? The results are what the classifications say, I count Turkington as if disqualified: he was in a sequential gearbox-equipped BMW, which is not what a Wtcc BMW is like. Do you think that if someone comes second at a race and the winner gets disqualified you should consider that he has come second when lloking at his performances? I think definitely not. There is a reason why Turkington was not counted: his BMW was 30 or 40 kgs lighter than the works BMW, I don't remember exactly. Brands Hatch is one of the tracks in which you feel the most the weight difference.
Senna: yeah, it was an acquired skill, something anyone can do, not only Priaulx because it always rains in England. Larini is a great wet track racer, and he's Italian, so...
Sorry, I made a mistake in counting the races, but it makes it still stunning: it means 3 podiums in 10 attempts against 2 in 12 attempts. 39 points before the TDi (12 races), 42 points with the TDi (10 races). Still the points he made in the TDi are more than 50%, obtained in the less than half of the races held during the year. Do you still claim that having the TDi was a disadvantage?
Farfus: True, Priaulx won his first crown in 2004, but he started his career in 1996 in theory, practically it was in 1999 that he entered his first full season in Renault Spider Cup, in which he won 13 races out of 13. Augusto started his racing career in 1991, by which time Priaulx had only been racing motorbikes, and he started racing outside of Brazil in 1998. A year later, 1999, he started racing in Europe, and he entered the single seaters world in 2000. With touring cars Andy only has a couple of years experience more than Farfus, as Andy became a works driver in Btcc with Honda in 2002, compensating with years and years of racing in go karts, which Priaulx never did. So, in touring cars, Priaulx started in 2002 and Farfus in 2004: I can't see much difference. I would rather rate Sergio Hernandez as the guy who could impress everyone, but it's too early to say. To be honest, at the moment I can't see anyone who can top Andy at all

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I count Turkington as if disqualified:

Ok, but in the rest of the world there is no confusion about what the word podium actually means. Nor is there any confusion about Colin participating in the race but being treated as invisible in regard to WTCC championship points scoring. It happens regularly in WTCC and is not in any way equal to being disqualified from the race.

Senna: yeah, it was an acquired skill, something anyone can do

Glad to see you changed your mind.

Larini is a great wet track racer, and he's Italian, so...

He is? I seem to remember Rydell showing him how to drive a Lacetti in the wet the first and only weekend he sat in the car.

39 points before the TDi (12 races), 42 points with the TDi (10 races).

Those differences are so small they are bordering statistically insignificant. Further, how much money do you want to bet on me finding at least 5 WTCC drivers that had a bigger point difference between their first n second half season in 2008 alone, without changing their car? In short, you are trying to prove your theory with numbers that actually speak against you.

Do you still claim that having the TDi was a disadvantage?

I will continue to claim what I did claim. It is high risk to take a non fully developed car/engine package racing and it is not a sane way to go fighting for a championship. You might get lucky, but Murphys law usually sees to that you dont. Seat very wisely also only put the TDI into 2 of it's 5 cars for this very reason. Speed is good, actually crossing the finish line is better.

Farfus: True, Priaulx won his first crown in 2004, but he started his career in 1996...

Please look up the word mature. You continuously talking about which year people started racing at least makes me get the impression you dont understand what the word actually means. For starters, it is not a synonym for years of experience.

[helterskelter]

Turkington had a car that did not fit the regulations of Wtcc and was therefore invisible, a equential gearbox is much different than H pattern gearboxes, so it makes sense. If you don't understand, let Turkington explain you, as he drove both of them. Anyway, Muller came third in Brands Hatch. A podium is not about raising a trophy but about coming first, second or third and gaining 10, 8 or 6 points, which Muller did. As simple as that.
I didn't change my mind about wet track, it's just that it's completely arbitrary to say that Priaulx has raced more in the wet, as Farfus could have acquired that skill in Brazil just like Senna did. Anyway, if you were more aware of what you say, you'd have known that Priaulx himself thinks about wet track racing as more of an instinct, that you develop and fine tune through the years, but it is a lot about talent and ALSO about acquiring skills. Nobody is born knowing how to race on a wet track. Anyway, Priaulx showed he's better than Farfus in the wet, no matter why he does. You definitely have to have talent, which is the difference between world class drivers like Priaulx, Senna, Schumacher and Vettel, and drivers like Farfus, but that doesn't make Augusto a terrible driver in the wet!
The track was drying in Anderstorp and Rydell had slick tyres while Larini had rains, a lesson Larini already knew: everybody knows that on a drying track the guy with slick tyres is faster than the guy in the rains, as the rain tyres will get burned. Larini has been on a Formula One podium, he drove for Ferrari and won championships, he deserves far more than being treated the way you treat him.
You think it was a disadvantage? Then I hope Seat hires you. You'd be great in letting BMW win a few more championships. Either they're idiots or they knew what they were doing, knew what they could do with the TFSI, with which they basically stood no chance, and they switched to the TDi, with which they had a chance. Giving a risky car to the only guy who could let you win the championship would be absolutely clever of them: I wonder why they still have their jobs, as they did such a mistake, because they lost the crown in the end! By the way, look at the performances of Tarquini and Monteiro, and Genè in the second TDi: Tarquini scored 27 points and Monteiro 21 in the reliable and superfast TFSI, while poor Genè only scored 41 in the unsafe TDi (Talking about the weekends in which the TDi was introduced). What an absolute dominance by the TFSI! Is that still statisically irrelevant and showing that the TFSI was more competitive?
The difference between you and me is that I respect Muller. I may not like him as a person, but I owe him respect because I love this sport and know that nodoby should discuss what comes from the track and he is a worthy 2008 World Champion, but you don't respect Andy as a 2004 European Champion and 2005, 2006 and 2007 World Champion. I am sorry to tell you, but this is completely wrong, and from the way you are talking to me, you do not respect me neither, which is sad but ok. Like Muller, anyone who doesn't think the way you do is wrong and has to feel like crap.
Maturity: characteristic of full development, either mental or physical. Farfus is yet to fully develop himself mentally, and in racing you only do that through experience: there must be a reason why I made a mistake and went into the gravel in my first race ever and came third in the second race, 3 months later. Racing is about learning, which is why Larini, Tarquini, Giovanardi, all of them over 40, are still around and competitive. You seem to use the word mature referring to a guy who is older, but this is not often the case.
I looked up the word maturity, now you look up the word respect and try to use it towards Priaulx, at least, if not towards me.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway, Muller came third in Brands Hatch.

No, he came 4th and 5th. If you bother to check official WTCC documents instead of inventing your own rules, we would not even have this discussion.

A podium is not about raising a trophy but about coming first, second or third

Exactly. Yet you continue that sentence with contradicting the first part of that sentence. The points scored are all about the trophy, in this case the TC WDC. The podium is about in which order you actually finished the race.

I didn't change my mind about wet track

Yes you did. First you said it was only about talent. Then you agreed it's an aquired skill. Now you contiue to jump between the two. But yes, it's a skill you do need to have to have realistic chances of winning a WDC, whether it be in TC or F1, and Farfus do need to practice it a bit more for it not to be a relative weak point to his peers. That however doesnt make him an untalanted driver.

The track was drying in Anderstorp and Rydell had slick tyres while Larini had rains, a lesson Larini already knew: everybody knows that on a drying track the guy with slick tyres is faster than the guy in the rains, as the rain tyres will get burned.

Your statement is correct, but your conclusion is not. A lot of other drivers also started on slicks, yet it was only Rydell that managed to be even close to catching the 2 wet tired cars in the front. In fact, very few people on slick except Rydell did much climbing in the results, many in fact fell back. Some drivers on slicks (Start pos - End pos) *Start pos adjusted for Mullers DNF* Rydell ( 8 - 1 ) Dahlgren ( 9 - 8 ) Priaulx (10 - 13 ) ... In short, over the course of the entire race, there was no clear advantage for one tire over the other. Rydell won it because he managed to keep the pace of the people on wet tires on his slicks when it was wet, while every body else on slicks dropped way behind. That is what wet racing skill is all about.

Larini has been on a Formula One podium, he drove for Ferrari and won championships, he deserves far more than being treated the way you treat him.

A man should also know when it's time to retire. Past greatness doesnt win you current championships.

Is that still statisically irrelevant and showing that the TFSI was more competitive?

Since you keep pushing this even though your own numbers proves you wrong, I made a table of what your arguments results in.

Driver	R1-12 p/race	R13-24 p/race	Difference	conclusion according to helterskelters formula
Muller in 2007	3,25	4,20	0,95	Moving to TDI gace a massive 0,95 average point increase
2008 top 15 drivers
Yvan Muller	9,50	9,50	0,00	Indeed equal performance over the season, so TDI all the way.
Gabriele Tarquini	9,67	5,00	4,67	Appartently Tarquini had no less then 5! TDI engines in the car, all of which got replaced by TFSI mid season
Robert Huff	6,00	8,50	-2,50	I thought chevy didnt have a TDI? Yet Huff seems to have been using 2,5 of them from mid season
Andy Priaulx	7,17	6,33	0,83	Hmm, looks suspicious. 0.83 is almost as much as 0.95. Maybe BMW did use a TDI first half of the season?
Rickard Rydell	8,00	4,83	3,17	Definitely confirmed! Seat replaced at least 3 (of the 5?) TDI engines in Rydells car mid season
Augusto Farfus	4,50	6,00	-1,50	Oh, +1,5 TDI engine after mid season?
Jörg Müller	4,67	5,33	-0,67	Wow, surely he must have gotten at leat half a TDI as well mid season
Jordi Gené	5,67	3,67	2,00	Seems Gene was lucky, only 2 of the TDI engines in his car got replaced by TFSI dusring the second part of the season.
Alain Menu	3,83	5,17	-1,33	That is almost 1,5 TDI put into his car as well
Félix Porteiro	4,67	3,83	0,83	No wonder he change teams this year. They robbed him of his TDI mid season!
Nicola Larini	5,00	3,00	2,00	Apparently Larini started out with the 2 TDIs that later was moved to Huff and Menu
Tiago Monteiro	4,00	3,17	0,83	Another driver losing his TDI for a TFSI? Realy mystery here... where did all these TDI go?
Alessandro Zanardi	3,00	3,00	0,00	Finally another driver that didnt change engine mid season!
Tom Coronel	1,67	4,17	-2,50	Oh? Tom did after all get his TDI engine he asked for. In fact he got 2,5 of them
James Thompson	0,50	3,67	-3,17	Ahh, not it makes sense. That is where Rydells 3 TDI engines went

If after that table you still dont understand that the 0.95 increase in average points per race for TDI vs TFSI for Muller in 2007 constitues no evidence at all, then I cannot help you any more.

but you don't respect Andy

Dont confuse even more things, please. What I am arguing against is the easily proven wrong claims you are making left and right. For Andy I have nothing but respect for both his driving talent and how he is as a person. If you read what I have written about him on this forum in other threads, you would know that.

from the way you are talking to me, you do not respect me neither, which is sad but ok.

In the start I was hoping your confusion stemed from language barriers. But now I realize that it's just lack of knowledge and ability to analyse numbers. The sad part here is that you are supposed to be a motorsports journalist.

Maturity: characteristic of full development, either mental or physical. Farfus is yet to fully develop himself mentally, and in racing you only do that through experience

Maturity through ageing and learning from all parts of your life if what keeps the 40+ drivers competitive with the younger drivers with better reflexes. But if you prefer to still believe racing is the only way to develop yourself mentally then that is your loss.

[werner]

Well stedevil and helterskelter, it is good to see you have so much respect for eachother, given that you take so much time to comment eachother ;-)

Anyway, I am no expert, but I do no something about statistics. And it's easy to predict that in a sport with so many variables as touringcarracing (luck, crashes, driver talent, driver form of the day, penaltyweight, weather, reversed grids, tyrechoice, mechanical failures, etc.), the pretty arbitrary measuring of results (another pointsystem would have given a different result) and so few observations (only 24 races) would give any statistical usefull results. So any numbers that are given in any discussion are illustrative at best.
However this forum isn't for statisticians, but for motorsportsfans. I wouldn't be here if it was the other way. And from an educated viewers-perspective, it is not to hard to see that the TDi-engine is an advantage compared to the TSFi-engine; the higher power and torque easily make up for the added weight in most situations. Would Muller had any chance at Monza with a petrol-powered Leon? I doubt it.

The discussion about Brands Hatch, and the effects of Turkington on the results is offcourse meaningless. Everybody knows the facts, the choise to count him in the results or not is really arbitrary.

About wet-wheatherdriving; I think it's really a question of talent. Surely driving in the wet requires other racinglines, different optimal slip-angles, other (easier) appliance of throttle and brakes. But that's exactly the same as when a driver has to change cars, tyres or goes to a track he has never bin to. Everybody with some talent can learn to drive a car close to the limit in such situations. But the talented drivers learn it quikly.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

it is not to hard to see that the TDi-engine is an advantage compared to the TSFi-engine

No it's not, but what I was arguing (the start was in another thread) was that in 2007 when it was introduced, the TDI was still high risk due to little testing and much that could (and did) go wrong. Of the 10 remaining races Muller got 3 DNF/DNS due to engine breakage. Thus the assumption by helterskelter that Muller would not have been able to fight for the crown in 2007 without the TDI and "proving it" by pointing at a 0.95 increase in points/race, is nonfactual. Muller was top Seat driver in 2008, 2007, 2006, and only in 1 of those years did he not have the exact same car as the rest Seat drivers for the entire season. He just happens to be a kickass driver, TDI or no TDI.

The discussion about Brands Hatch, and the effects of Turkington on the results is offcourse meaningless. Everybody knows the facts, the choise to count him in the results or not is really arbitrary.

Yes, but a MS journalist should be able to differentiate between getting a podium in a race and scoring championship points. At least that is my opinion.

About wet-wheatherdriving; I think it's really a question of talent. Surely driving in the wet requires other racinglines, different optimal slip-angles, other (easier) appliance of throttle and brakes. But that's exactly the same as when a driver has to change cars, tyres or goes to a track he has never bin to. Everybody with some talent can learn to drive a car close to the limit in such situations. But the talented drivers learn it quikly.

I disagree. Changing brakes is one thing, but when the surface you are racing on changes into something else, it's not just about taking 3 laps around the circuit and you are fully learned. Dry tarmac, wet tarmac, gravel, ice, sand, mud, they all require years of practice to go from good to great even for the best of drivers. If that was not the case, why would eg Sebasitan Loeb still have problems winning on gravel compared to tarmac? He is getting better, due to years and years of practice. But is he an untalented driver because he has not yet fully mastered gravel as a surface? I would say no. Was Senna an untalented driver? It took him years as well to learn to drive great in the wet.

[werner]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I disagree. Changing brakes is one thing, but when the surface you are racing on changes into something else, it's not just about taking 3 laps around the circuit and you are fully learned. Dry tarmac, wet tarmac, gravel, ice, sand, mud, they all require years of practice to go from good to great even for the best of drivers. If that was not the case, why would eg Sebasitan Loeb still have problems winning on gravel compared to tarmac? He is getting better, due to years and years of practice. But is he an untalented driver because he has not yet fully mastered gravel as a surface? I would say no. Was Senna an untalented driver? It took him years as well to learn to drive great in the wet.

Sebastian Loeb has no troubles whatsoever on any roadsurface, and hasn't had them for years. The reason he wins easier on tarmac is that the other top-drivers in the WRC are not good enough on tarmac. They apparantly haven't learned to adapt their drivingstyle enough to suit tarmac. But I agree that he had to learn to drive on gravel at the highest level. He has the talent that he leared it in a few years, let's hope Latvala and Hirvonen have the talent to learn a better tarmac-drivingstyle soon to.
The troubles that rallydrivers are, are the really the same that drivers have who come for instance from single-seaters to touringcars, or indeed drivers who for the first time drive in the wet.
You not only have to learn a different style, you also have to 'unlearn' your old style. Permanently if you have changed your career to another form of motorsports, for a few weeks if you are a rallydriver preparing for a rally on a type of surface that you are not used to, and for an few minutes if you start a race on a wet but drying track.
So yes, learning to drive in the wet is harder than it is to learn to drive a new car, but the talent you need to accomplisch it is the same. And offcourse you need experience as well, but the more talent you have, the more quikly you learn.
What I also feel is important that a professional driver has to thÃ*nk about his drivingstyle in the wet. Together with his engineer he must be able to understand how he can drive his car faster. Conscious that is. I feel that a lot of drivers who are 'naturally fast' have larger problems adjusting to new sorts of cars, other surfaces or wet weather compared to drivers who think about their driving. Senna was I think one of the few drivers who have it both, and Loeb has it too probably.
All theory though since I have only driven 1 type of vehicles (go-karts) on one type of surface (indoor slippery concrete). Why one driver is faster or slower in different conditions is a fascinating subject anyway.

[helterskelter]

1- Rydell was in a Chevrolet, which was clearly the best car in the field that weekend, as the other results show. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
2- You said Muller was in the fight for it DESPITE the TDi, and what you wrote just proves you're wrong. You just showed that the TDi was not worse than the TFSI, yet it gave him slightly better results. Don't compare Muller with the 2008 drivers, compare him with the other Seat drivers in a TFSI and you'll have your answer. The table you made is pretty funny, but I'm not as stupid as you try to make me look like, another proof that you have no respect for people who think differently from you, as you try to pick on me while i try to give you facts.
3- I'm tired about the Brands Hatch thing: ok, so Muller came 4th, but got 6 points, so we're both right. Let's stop it, it's getting too funny.
4- Larini was good until 2007, you can have a blackout, it's allowed. If he's slow, I assure you Nicola Larini is not an idiot, and he will retire before they tell him to go away.
5- You're not in the position to question my ability as a journalist or my knowledge, since you're not a journalist, not a racing driver and you haven't been on racing tracks since you were born like me. It's just a different way of seeing, reality, and you take it personally, which may make you feel cool. If it does, I'm ok with it, keep having fun. You deserve this kind of fun, since you can't go in a car and prove your talent or show your much celebrated and absolute knowledge on a website who gets thousands of contacts a day.
6- +40 drivers are more competitive? I thought Priaulx, the most successful touring car driver in the history, was barely in his 30s when he won the Etcc...
7- Wet racing: I said it's a mix of both talent and acquiring skills: Senna and Priaulx had both of them, Farfus clearly lacks one of the two. If not, let's chat again in 10 years time, if Farfus will still be racing in the same car as Priaulx, and we'll talk then and see if he got better or not

[Bramzel]

@ helterskelter: your point 5 hits completely misses the target. It doesn't matter where you come from or how cool you are here, everybody can voice his opinion whether you like it or not. Please keep that in mind. Also, an attitude like that ain't exactly working in your favor if you think it does.

For the rest I think you guys should take this a bit less serious

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

1- Rydell was in a Chevrolet, which was clearly the best car in the field that weekend, as the other results show.

Yes, the car was not bad, but if you remove Rydells performance, was it truly that great? Larini dropped from 2nd to 7th in race 1 and Huff dropped from 8th to 11th in race 2. Rydell outscored or equaled all 3 regular drivers even though he deliberatley held back and played rear guard helping both Larini and Menu get into P1 & 2 on the reverse grid. The car was certainly on par with the other factory teams cars, but it was Rydells performance that made it shine and truly stand out above the rest. So belitteling Rydells performance by stating how great his car was when it was only in his hands it truly outshone all other cars... thats a bit weird analysis isn't it.

2- You said Muller was in the fight for it DESPITE the TDi

Exactly. How many more times do I need to say that a car can be quick but unreliable before you understand this concept? I even listed teams suffering from this in S&BTCC this year. What else can I say so it's less difficult to understand?

Don't compare Muller with the 2008 drivers, compare him with the other Seat drivers in a TFSI and you'll have your answer.

I did. He was the best scoring Seat driver in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Ie, every year he has been in the WTCC no matter the engine.

6- +40 drivers are more competitive?

Are you trying to make it look like I said that? I didnt. But TCs certainly is a racing class where experience and maturity can keep you competitive much longer than in most other MotorSport championships.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

let's hope Latvala and Hirvonen have the talent to learn a better tarmac-drivingstyle soon to.

At least Hirvonen looked a lot less pale in comparison to Loeb in 2008, so maybe soon. Though, who knows how much longer WRC will be around. But I guess Im trampling all over the forum section topic.

[helterskelter]

Ok, compare Muller's performances with Tarquini's during the period in which Muller had the TDi and Tarquini had the TFSI and you'll have your answer. No doubt Muller is a great driver, I'm not questioning that. If not an advantage, you have to admit the TDi allowed him to win races, which the TFSI didn't up to then in that year.
I repeat, Seat engineers are not stupid, they have tested the TDi long enough to put it on the racetrack: if you think that giving Muller the TDi was a mistake, again, look at the TFSI performances during the same period and give yourself an answer. I'm not discussing the TDi anymore, it's so clear that you're blinded by Muller's undiscussed talent and you don't see how much the car is important in this sport. Ah, and about the examples, look at Giovanardi winning the 2007 crown in a new car: does your rule only apply to Seat? And don't mention the Volvo because it has a different fuel on, and it doesn't give the huge advantages the diesel allows to have.
As for Anderstorp, I would mention Huff winning Race 1, which you didn't and makes YOUR analysis weird, as the Lacetti, at the end of it all, took all the wins in Anderstorp. Also, a swedish driver will know Anderstorp better than a swiss driver would, which would be another thing to take into consideration and that I didn't mention before. Having said that, Rydell is a great driver and deserves great respect, he's always been a nice and correct guy and a very quick driver.
As for the age, it's important to have experience in touring cars, you're right: but a guy who has had a decent experience in touring cars and id in his 30s is more likely to succeed than a guy in his 40s. As Tarquini showed, a guy in his 40s can throw out of the track a guy in his 30s so that he doesn't score points, which is a skill I hope not to learn as my racing career goes on.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Ok, compare Muller's performances with Tarquini's during the period in which Muller had the TDi and Tarquini had the TFSI and you'll have your answer.

2007 2nd half of season (average points per race) - Muller (4,20) - Tarquini (2,70) - Diff (2,50)
2008 2nd half of season (average points per race) - Muller (9,50) - Tarquini (5,00) - Diff (4,50)

I think those numbers show what I have been saying all along. In 2007 the TD was quick but unreliable and Muller kicks Tarquinis butt at the end of season whatever the engine technology. The same tendecy you can btw see also in 2006.

If not an advantage, you have to admit the TDi allowed him to win races, which the TFSI didn't up to then in that year.

Definitly. I said all along the TD was quicker. Naturally no team would replace something tested with something untested unless there was good enough advantage in some area, eg speed.

Ah, and about the examples, look at Giovanardi winning the 2007 crown in a new car: does your rule only apply to Seat?

Do you remember VXR having much reliability or general setup problems in 2007? I dont. A car that has been properly developed and got a lot of testing has a much greater chance of hitting the ground running. BTCC Seat got their cars way too late before the 2008 season for proper testing and suffered heavily in the first half of the season.

And don't mention the Volvo because it has a different fuel on, and it doesn't give the huge advantages the diesel allows to have.

Volvos problems had nothing what so ever to do with the fuel. The very same engines performed brilliantly already in 2007 STCC in the S60. The C30 however was heavily underdeveloped due to delays and problems and even missed a lot of the spring testing. By mid season they had caught up but it was already too late to do anything about driver or team championships.

As for Anderstorp, I would mention Huff winning Race 1, which you didn't and makes YOUR analysis weird

Yes, Huff managed to qualify well (3rd) and pass 2 cars, 1 of them a teammate, and take the win. That is good, not great, which is exatly what I said. Also remember that the top opposition in race 1 (4th and 5th) was busy doing other stuff (Rydell helping Larini and Menu to be in the top 8 and Ekblom falling back to try and help Priaulx up from 15th), so Huff was not under too much pressure from behind.

Also, a swedish driver will know Anderstorp better than a swiss driver would, which would be another thing to take into consideration and that I didn't mention before.

Yes, Rydell would have the advantage of knowing the track, but also the disadvantage of being in the car for the first time and having less tires for the weekend.

[helterskelter]

We're talking about 2007: was the TDi slower than the TFSI? It wasn't. The TDi being underdeveloped is your opinion, not Seat's: if they brought it on track it's because they thought it was the best way to win the championship. Like you said, and I agree about that, Muller is the best Seat driver, so they would have been fools to give their best driver something they were unsure about. Failures happen in racing cars, they're always pushed to the limit, in Macau 2007 it happened to Muller and he lost the championship. It happens.
You keep on talking about 2008: I told you to compare the results of the TDi with the results of the TFSI. You think that Muller getting more points is about the driver being better: then take Genè-Tarquini and compare them. You'll have a good time, I assure you. I already told you, you think I'm discussing Muller's talent, and I'm definitely not, and I repeat he's a worthy 2008 World Champion. Like this, we're talking about 2 different things; I'm talking about the TDi and the TFSI abd you're talking about Yvan Muller and Gabriele Tarquini, so take the Muller variable off and compare Jordi Genè, who had the TDi, with Tarquini, and see what happens, so you'll be more serene in judging. Anyway, I would never dare to say that Priaulx kicks anyone's butt, I think it's a bit offensive...
VXR driver Giovanardi does remember he had problems during the first part of the season, as he told me, and the car wasn't 100% quick. As he told me, he had to risk much more because he knew that in the next race the car could have a failure or it wouldn't be alright in the next track, so he had to take advantage of the races in which his car was better in order to cover for the difficult races. Seat suffered in 2008 because the car was designed to have Yokohama tyres on, but in the Btcc they use Dunlops, which made them go crazy with the setup as they had to start it all over. And yes, they were unreliable, because the car was designed to have 2 races instead of 3 per weekend, for instance, and a lot of details that are different between Btcc and Wtcc. You also have to mention that in GB they don't have a Tarquini trying to take the direct rival for the championship off the track.
Wasn't Huff under pressure? I recall him finishing right ahead of Monteiro...
About Rydell, I would say the disadvantages compensate the advantage of knowing the track, considering that he might have tested the Lacetti at least once before getting into the car, a question I'll ask him as soon as possible as an informal curiosity.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

The TDi being underdeveloped is your opinion

A DNS/DNF of 30% purely down to the engine breaking, is that normal in your opinion? If you do, please provide the year and car we saw similar engine failur stats in WTCC.

You keep on talking about 2008

No, I keep talking about 2006, 2007 and 2008. All of these years Tarquini crumbles like a cookie in the 2nd half of the season. It doesnt matter if he is driving TFSI or TDI, the pattern is exactly the same.

VXR driver Giovanardi does remember he had problems during the first part of the season, as he told me, and the car wasn't 100% quick. As he told me, he had to risk much more because he knew that in the next race the car could have a failure or it wouldn't be alright in the next track, so he had to take advantage of the races in which his car was better in order to cover for the difficult races.

Sounds like a normal racing year to me for any driver. Sometimes the opposition is quicker, sometime you have some other problem, and you keep developing and improving the car throughout the season. But do come back to me with numbers that eg shows them not finish 30% of the races due to the engine breaking.

Seat suffered in 2008 because the car was designed to have Yokohama tyres on, but in the Btcc they use Dunlops, which made them go crazy with the setup as they had to start it all over.And yes, they were unreliable, because the car was designed to have 2 races instead of 3 per weekend, for instance, and a lot of details that are different between Btcc and Wtcc.

How does this differ from what I said? Because you are describing the consequences of not enough time to do proper pre season testing.

You also have to mention that in GB they don't have a Tarquini trying to take the direct rival for the championship off the track.

LOL?!? Dont get me started on BTCC and drivers taking each other off...

Wasn't Huff under pressure? I recall him finishing right ahead of Monteiro...

Yes, that was the guy he passed...

[helterskelter]

I can't remember Race 1 in Anderstorp too well, but I seem to recall Monteiro was much faster than Huff.
The DNFs are taken on a small amount of races, so that the failure they had in Macau makes it already 20% of the races... To me it is not enough indicative.
Anyway with the Btcc version of the TDi I'm talking about structural differences between the Wtcc version and the other version that needed to be created. Once more, they introduced the TDi because they knew that without it they would have lost against Giovanardi. And to Piedone it's not a normal approach, this year he won it because he didn't take unnecessary chances and he won because he's smarter than other drivers, and definitely quicker. Every new car is not immediately quick and reliable, but it doesn't mean that the TDi wasn't because we don't know when they started its developement. That's why I say that your statement of the TDi being underdeveloped is an opinion.
I know that there's a strong fight in the Btcc! What I meant is that Turner never deliberately pushed Giovanardi off the track because he had broken his turbo! Slight misunderstanding.
Again, you are talking about Tarquini and I'm talking about the TDi! Compare Genè and Tarquini and come back... We all know Muller is the best Seat driver, nobody is discussing his talent or the fact that he's far more consistent than Tarquini. Muller is definitely a top driver, stop defending him as if I were attacking him! You might be trying to decrease the prestige of a multichampion like Priaulx by saying that Muller would have won, were it not for the TDi but, however you may want to discuss, the track has spoken and said that Priaulx was the best from 2004 until 2007 and this year Muller was, as simple as that.
Also, please remeber we're both talking about somehing we deeply love, so please stop taking it personally and be more serene when talking about this, maybe stop trying to laugh at me or discuss my job as a journalist, because I've had far more exclusive interviews and news than many other more experienced guys in the business and yet I'm vey very young, so maybe you're not in the position to say certain things about me. We don't have to necessarily be friends, but respecting each other would be great

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I can't remember Race 1 in Anderstorp too well, but I seem to recall Monteiro was much faster than Huff.

Well, for parts of the race he was. He started first on the grid, almost 0.8s ahead Huff in the qualy, in a TSFI...

The DNFs are taken on a small amount of races, so that the failure they had in Macau makes it already 20% of the races... To me it is not enough indicative.

Yet you think the 0.95 increase in p/race from the same 10 races that show at 30% DNS/DNF proves that Muller wouldnt have a chance for the championship without the TD. This even after me presenting a table where 10 out of the top 15 drivers this year had bigger point average differences than that. Do you realize why someone might find your POV slightly inconsistent?

And to Piedone ...

Sorry, the who/what?

I know that there's a strong fight in the Btcc! What I meant is that Turner never deliberately pushed Giovanardi off the track because he had broken his turbo!

No, but I sadly did see Gio push Turner off the track to ensure the champioship win. And since pretty much the only reason I was enduring watching the BTCC in 2007-8 was to follow Gio showing his great driving talent and how to win the BTCC without being a prick, I was absolutely gutted by him succumbing to those tactics as well. Im still not sure I will even bother following the BTCC this year. Depends a lot on if eg Coronel, Thompson and/or eg Plato in a C30 shows up or not. If not, it's not going to be worth it getting irritated at seeing skilled drivers getting punted off the track left and right without the officials ever doing anything about it.

Again, you are talking about Tarquini and I'm talking about the TDi!

But you are continously pushing the idea that I should compare Tarquinis performace vs drivers in a TDI and I keep pointing out that is pointless because T has been sucking from mid season for 3 years in a row.

stop defending him as if I were attacking him!

For the record, M is not my particularly a fav driver of mine. I recognize his skill (as I do Priaulx'), but the guys I was routing for this year was Rydell (because he is Swedish and good enough, though he was no match for M nor T this year) and Thompson (outstanding driver performing miracles in underbudget cars). Of course seeing Coronel whacking all 5 Seat factory drivers on the head occasionally is a perk as well

[helterskelter]

The TFSI is not a Lada, of course it was a competitive car, not enough to win the championship, though.
I'm saying the TDi was more competitive than the TFSI, which is proved by the fact that Muller was more competitive, won races (which didn't happen that year until the TDi came in) and was in the fight for the championship until the end. Have you noticed that the TFSI won 1 race in 2007 and the TDi won 3? As for Tarquini, your table for 2008 shows Genè was worse than Tarquini in 2008 in the second part of the season, but he wasn't when he had a TDi Leon. Do the comparison, it'll help you understand my point. Tarquini has been worse (not 'sucking', which is offensive) than Muller, but not worse than Genè, so this comparison can really help IMO.
Piedone is what Giovanardi is called in Italy, it means something like 'big foot', referring to his skills especially on fast tracks, such as Thruxton or italian Pergusa. I must have missed him taking Turner deliberatey out of the track, please remind me when it happened, as I missed watching some of the summer races, and I'll go and see what Giovanardi did.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I must have missed him taking Turner deliberatey out of the track, please remind me when it happened

IIRC it should be the 3rd race of the penultimate weekend, since finishing ahead of T would secure him the championship, and behind him, Plato still had a chance.

As for a team mate taking out the main rival, TOC did a pretty nasty one a few races before where he sent Plato spinning into the tire barriers. It's not like Plato didnt have it coming after his behaviour in the past, but two wrongs doesnt make a right, and it certainly was relevant for the championship outcome.

And the indy Champion, Turkington, I completely lost track of how many times he shoved people of track. At least 1 per weekend for sure, but the worst was the race he sent no less than 5 drivers off. By that point of course the rest of the drivers got so fed up by his behaviour so 3 of the guys he had sent off made a big point of slamming back into him as the passed him (Neal, Gio, Jackson). It's just sad to see how drivers need to resort to on track penalism because the officials always look the other way. The only people made happy by this are the crash monkeys.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

We all know Muller is the best Seat driver, nobody is discussing his talent or the fact that he's far more consistent than Tarquini. Muller is definitely a top driver, stop defending him as if I were attacking him!

Didn't this debate come from you claiming Muller wasn't a 'champion' in your eyes. Cantr remember the wording, bu this is how it came across

I've had far more exclusive interviews and news than many other more experienced guys in the business and yet I'm vey very young, so maybe you're not in the position to say certain things about me.

This bragging is totally irrelevant to the discussion here.

[helterskelter]

True, but i never questioned Muller's talent. It all started because I said that a champion has to be a certain kind of person, and I think Muller is not the kind of guy I would rate as a champion. Priaulx and Senna are champions to me. But I never questioned Yvan's talent, he's absolutely a top class driver.
I said those things about me cause stedevil questioned my ability as a journalist and my knowledge about touring cars.