BARC CTCRC Toyo modified production classic thunder saloon car championship

[big andy]

full tittles a bit of a mouth full so probably a new name will have to be thought up ld like to see the classic thunder bit used somewhere though

will the new series be run as one race with two cham/ships within that race or a completely new set of rules be written. looking at the two sets of regs theres not a lot of difference, light weight panels, vehicle age, and , tyres being the obvious ones so it should be a fairly easy merger

what if any are big changers going to be

[R59]

Originally Posted by big andy

full tittles a bit of a mouth full so probably a new name will have to be thought up ld like to see the classic thunder bit used somewhere though

will the new series be run as one race with two cham/ships within that race or a completely new set of rules be written. looking at the two sets of regs theres not a lot of difference, light weight panels, vehicle age, and , tyres being the obvious ones so it should be a fairly easy merger

what if any are big changers going to be

Here's my tuppence-worth...

Title - too much there. Try this:

BARC Toyo Tyres Thunder Saloon Championship (only if Toyo supply Slicks!!)

Rules - 2 classes - up to 2500cc, and over 2500cc. 2 drivers, 75mile races (min) with mandatory pit stop to change driver. Steel shelled saloon cars with original bulkhead in place (but may be modified to accomodate engine/transmission)......

Somebody stop me before I go...

A plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it, and call it a

Rob.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Tyres will probably be the main change. Road tyres in one, slicks in the other. I can't see the big bangers wanting to run on road tyres, and (as Dennis has mentioned before) the Toyo runners face the extra expense of upgrading their cars to handle slicks.

Unless there's going to be some more "down a class for list 1a, down 2 for list 1b" shenanigans.

I'm sure the respective committees have things worked out and next year will be a good one.

[Al Weyman]

If you are allowing any year car in how can it retain the word 'Classic' and I have raced my big bangers on road tyres and its no problem. I like the drop a class if not on slicks bit, its gonna be a tricky one this as the rules are less similair than what may appear on the surface, IMHO I think the ModProds are closer to the CTRCC Pre-93's and it would be easier to upgrade the rules in that championship especially as 06 was its first year than to downgrade classic thunder.

[Tim Wilkinson]

But then you'd have pre-93 as Classic Thunder on treaded tyres. I thought the whole point of pre-93 as being an extension of "group 1" for the next ten years, and Classic Thunder was to catch the super-modified cars from all eras.

Mod-prods are a middle ground - throttle bodies are outlawed in pre-93 so that's half the Toyo field gone, and if you let t/bs in then you lose the "group 1" essence of pre-93.

Cossies on road tyres instead of slicks? Not right to me, loses the essence of CT.

Are there many current Toyo cars that are post-93? I can only think of the Integra and the Megane.

Possibly there's call for an "anything goes as long as it's steel-bodied and pretty original" series combining Toyos and CT, with a drop-a-class-for-road-tyres proviso (as much as I think all that up and down classes is confusing, I suppose it works).

[Al Weyman]

I know what you mean about confusing and the guy I pipped to the post at Brands in Class B was a bit upset as he was in a 3 litre Capri and thought it unfair I was in a 5.8 Chevy till I pointed out I was on list 1b and he said 'Well so am I' so I pointed out that he should have been in Class C where he would have finished about 4th instead of 2nd but he did have a point I guess and if my car goes well at Snetterton at the weekend it will be even more prevalant than Brands Indy. Mind you having said that if he had been on pure slicks at Brands he probably would have beaten me as there was only a 100th of a second in it so the rule probably has some merit!

Its not that much of a problem not running on slicks with powerful cars no more than any car I would say I mean there are some pretty powerful road cars out there now, in fact its probably easier to generate more heat into the road rubber with a powerful and heavy car.

Prehaps with the green issues and disposal of old tyres being one of the major problems that maybe we should all be encouraged to run on road rubber and list 1a at that. However I do concede your point about dropping slicks in CT and do have concerns that while encouraging some ModProds in (and there is no guarantee of that) that you will loose some of the slick shot runners. This has to be thought through very very carefully.

[greenamex2]

How about "Classic Mod Prods"?

The only Mod Prod cars affected by the pre-93 are the Integra, the Escort (it's a Mk 6) and the Megane. The Escort driver was more than happy to fit the Mk 5 panels on his car as the Mk 6 was just a facelift anyway. It would be nice to allow the more modern cars in somehow, perhaps with 10 year old rule or invitation class.

[Al Weyman]

Where does the classic bit fit in though if you could enter a new car?

[greenamex2]

Hence the 10 year old entry requirement suggestion.

[Highside]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

How about "Classic Mod Prods"?

Yep - Works for me.

It would be nice to allow the more modern cars in somehow, perhaps with 10 year old rule

I think the idea of a rolling 10 or 12 (or whatever) year rule is pretty good. It allows people to race otherwise defunt (for modern racing), but still very special saloon cars, while still feeling "classic".

I know it will be difficult to please all of the people all of the time, but lets face it, both sides will have to compromise, as saddly neither series is going anywhere on its own...

So if the CT boys can accept a move to 1a or 1b tyres (tough I know), while the mod-prods can accept free gearboxes, plastic bodywork, coilovers and drysumps etc, I think everyone can fit in with what should be a good fun, and not to mention fast, series, with some very interesting cars and some decent grids.

As I saw from the latest "Flyer" newsleter that the CTCRC very kindly sent me, they seam to be trying to encourage more people to double up in their races (i.e. Prod BMW racers doing an extra race in Pre-93, Pre-93'ers doing an extra race in Classic Thunder etc), so perhaps any future rules should take into account people coming accross from another series? Such as "if your car is built to and reguarly races to Pre 93 / Grp1 /PHT / whatever, you can drop one class". Would this help boost grids or not?

Just my tupence worth.... Discuss!

Rob

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Highside

As I saw from the latest "Flyer" newsleter that the CTCRC very kindly sent me, they seam to be trying to encourage more people to double up in their races (i.e. Prod BMW racers doing an extra race in Pre-93, Pre-93'ers doing an extra race in Classic Thunder etc), so perhaps any future rules should take into account people coming accross from another series? Such as "if your car is built to and reguarly races to Pre 93 / Grp1 /PHT / whatever, you can drop one class". Would this help boost grids or not?

Only as long as road going BMW M3's aren't allowed to race when it is wet

[Highside]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Only as long as road going BMW M3's aren't allowed to race when it is wet

Damn - you saw through my cunning plan. I would have got away with it too if it wasn't for you pesky kids....

[andypipe]

Isnt that something along the lines of the new BARC SE tin tops. They have to use 1a/b tyres. and the entry fees are a damn sight cheaper

[carrera]

Would be nice to know the rules/regulations/classes sooner rather than later. There are several former CT drivers racing with TRC this year where there is a home for all types of car. TRC are already discussing next year's regs and inviting comment, perhaps BARC/CTCRC should do the same.

[Highside]

The last thing I heard (err, sometime in late July / early August) was that Toyo were intending continue their sponsorship of the series through the merger with CT (NOTE - this was unconfirmed, and remains so as far as I know).

Anyone know if this is still the case?


If so - I am hoping that this will also mean that the famous "free set of tyres" to all those competeing for the first time in the series (provided they complete three races) will be carried over also, as it was for Mod-Prods.

Surely this will help attract new competitors / old CT&MP racers, while placating those who are resisting a change from slicks to 888's?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah its all very wonderful if they have your tyre size, if they don't then tough. They don't even do the standard tyre size as the car came from the factory for my car! And Andy good value as the Tin Tops undoubtably is its seems to be restricted to Lydden Hill and a lot of guys don't like the place much.

[andypipe]

We have had just as many rounds at brands as Lydden

[big andy]

its got to be slicks for me as no one makes treads wide enough for 10x13.
classic thunder as always been for highly modified cars i just couldn't see nigel garrets rover sdi or the french blokes 68 camaro on treaded tyres .i dont see toyo sponsering a championship with half the field on slicks half on there treaded tyres .the drop a class rule looks like a sensible way round things though .to keep things classic their as to be a cut of date somewhere the early 1990s

[carrera]

1993 seems the most obvious date - to tie in with the pre 93s.

[R59]

Originally Posted by big andy

its got to be slicks for me as no one makes treads wide enough for 10x13.
classic thunder as always been for highly modified cars i just couldn't see nigel garrets rover sdi or the french blokes 68 camaro on treaded tyres .i dont see toyo sponsering a championship with half the field on slicks half on there treaded tyres .the drop a class rule looks like a sensible way round things though .to keep things classic their as to be a cut of date somewhere the early 1990s

Toyo do make some rather good slick tyres. Just getting them in the UK has proven difficult in the past (in my experience).

I'm sorry, I just don't see the word "Classic" in the same sentence as the "the 1990's"

When I think of classic cars, I always thing of things pre-1970's (with a very few exceptions).

It's more like "nearly old touring cars that are not really because they're sort of group 1 and a bit more, or a lot more in some cases championship".

Very very difficult to "box it up".

The idea of dropping/bumping up classes by tyre type is interesting.

It's ever so difficult to put these two championships together, where Classic Thunder catered for just about anything steel shelled like old Gp.A touring cars, and Mod Saloons. Where ModProds didn't allow anywhere the level of modifications but had no age limit.

Short of turning away the newer cars, and just plain absorbing the ModProds into Classic Thunder as is, with a concession for road tyres, may be a simple way forward.

However, CT has lost a lot of players, whether that's down to pre-93 fitting some of the cars better? Difficult to call.

Sadly, it comes back to the thing I have said so many times in the past. Too many championships with too much cross-over thinning out each other, making each other look sick.

As for the Camaro on road tyres - look at V8 Thunder....... they're on road rubber...

Rob.

[Rod Birley]

Last year Nick Williamson won class B in DT&R using Toyo tyres on his Peugeot, beating all the Cosworth Sappires. This year Gareth Porter did very well at Brands in August with Toyos in another DT&R race (winning class D).

[Ian Sowman]

Rather than get too prescriptive in trying to merge the regs of Classic Thunder and Modprods, would it not be easier to call it the BARC Saloon Car Championship and keep the regs and the class structure as simple as possible? Maybe then it could scoop up some more cars too...

I can just see a lot of fiddling around and grids still only coming to something in the range of 12-18 cars, which would be a bit disappointing. I'm not sure you can just add the two 'average' grids and expect them all to turn out next year.

That might be starting to sound a bit DTRC-ish, I don't know.

[Al Weyman]

and grids still only coming to something in the range of 12-18 cars,

Well we have 17 entered this weekend and I guess more will turn up on the day.

[Rod Birley]

This could be a case of what the drivers decide. The choice appears to be DT&R with two races at each meeting (entry fees are usually very resonable) but the championship is south east based. Alternatively a national championship, with inherent travelling costs and usually higher entry fees. You pay your money and take your choice.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well we have 17 entered this weekend and I guess more will turn up on the day.

Yes, but there has also been some much smaller Classic Thunder grids and ModProds this year have been frankly pathetic (although some of the racing has actually been decent!).