Problems ahead with European Arrest Warrant?

[cos]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12377.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/3411505.stm

…The Formula 1 team bosses are worried because in some countries, notably Italy, there are laws which would come under the European arrest warrant, relating to sporting incidents, such as the death of a driver. They are worried that they could find themselves extradited and jailed in a foreign country, despite the fact that an accident is not considered to be a criminal offence under British law.…

Arrest warrants could be used against team chiefs in the case of fatalities, but they want guarantees from governments that they will be exempt.

"This is a matter of serious concern," said FIA president Max Mosley.

"We will continue to talk with the various EU governments and the European Commission to try and resolve it."

Thoughts?

[Scrutineer78]

Even though Bernie has no love lost for Europe, the governments sure are making it easier for him.

[avsfan733]

And I thought ridiculous legal proceedings where limited to the US. Doing things like this only add to the pain that so many people go through when someone dies. Drivers know they are taking a risk, and the safety standards are in place but sometimes bad things do happen, sad but true

[Jay]

From a racing fans point of view.... I think this is absolutely ridiculous and the drivers know the risk, etc etc...

From an engineering ethics point of view, to somewhat of an extent, I think if a part of a car breaks causing a crash that kills or permenantly disables a driver, spectators or anyone else, then he may be partly responsible. If it was a road car, that engineer's career would likely be over if the car they designed killed people becuase of a design flaw.

Anyway, anyone who is familiar with law knows that regardless of how many waivers you get the drivers and other participants to sign or agree to - when there is a death or even serious injury the lawyers will come running and the lawsuits will be underway.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Jay

Anyway, anyone who is familiar with law knows that regardless of how many waivers you get the drivers and other participants to sign or agree to - when there is a death or even serious injury the lawyers will come running and the lawsuits will be underway.

Yes but they are civil actions not criminal proceedings.

[jetsetter]

These laws are ridiculous & will only succeed in chasing the sport away Europe. If i was running an F1 team i know i wouldn't want to compete in a country under those laws.

[climb]

The first action sholud actually be the effort to improve safety, IMO.
Particularly, teams (and FIA) should feel stimulated not to wait for some death (like i t happened in 1994) to recall that safety is a prime issue.
The recent results in the search of a better safety have been absolutely encouraging, and, if they'll continue, will set a discharging element in case of accidents, provided auto racing is recognizedly a risky activity.

[Mattracer]

How can things as dangerous as motor racing be regulated to such an extent.

It's all controlled risk.

[eein]

Sounds like the new law is taking things a bit too far on the 'political correctness' scale.

If there is a fatality, there should not be an automatic arrest of the team boss.

However, there SHOULD be a proper enquiry that examines all the causes of the death and checks that all procedures and processes that the designers and manufacturers are subject to were followed correctly. It should also be ensured that there was no negligence on the part of anyone involved in the design and build process - for example is a team boss cuts corners to win.

Any changes to the laws should concentrate on these procedures and the implementation of them.

[Kicking-back]

It's not a new law.

What's happening is that a Europe-wide arrest warrant is being introduced - so if you commit a crime in France and then flee to Holland, the French authorities can have you arrested there.

The unfortunate implication of this is that as Italy always goes for a criminal prosecution in the aftermath of a fatal accident, a team owner or designer would no longer be able to escape "Italian Justice" on this matter simply by staying out of Italy.

So, the European Arrest Warrant is a good idea - it just has a bad side effect.

However, all the teams have continued to race at the Italian and San Marino Grands Prix since 19-94 and I don't for a second think there's any real chance of a boycott happening now.

[Pit_Lane_Babe]

I understand that the law in itself is a good idea, but applying it to F1 is not. With cars travelling around a track at 100mph+ in some parts, how can they not expect accidents to happen? Thank goodness engineering has come on in such a way that things like these do not happen very often
I do not understand why it would be the team bosses that would be getting into trouble anyhow, he is not telling the driver how to drive.
I do agree that in situations where someone does die there should be a proper enquiry, but there are certain ways of going about it.

[goforit500]

If I were to exit when racing I would like to think that my team, as always, has taken all reasonable precautions against it happening but also, that whilst an enquiry to discover the exact reason why it happened (To avoid a repitition ONLY), any team members would not be held responsible except where there was obvious and intentional negligence.....

I believe that NO team, at any level, would knowingly risk a drivers life because, putting personal feelings to one side, they would never race again in the modern era because of the adverse publicity, and noone would want to drive for them either !!

[BootsOntheSide]

TEams always take the maximum precautions regarding safety, and would never seriously endanger anyone's life. Even without this situation, the potential consequences are just too severe. Senna's death saw Frank/Patrick/Adrian have their professional ability and integrity questioned, they recieved a hounding from the savages in the media, they had a constant distraction from their work and personal lives, and the team's results suffered as well.

This law sounds excessive, but it's part of the wider desire to create common legal systems across Europe. A boycott of the races seems unlikely, especially as the EU now consists of 26 nations, many of which are looking to add an F1 race.

[Teretonga]

Why not apply it to F1 if it applies to other forms of Motorsport accidents. Max should be fighting it for ALL motorsport, not just F1.

[Jay]

F1 is motorsport ...

Seriously though, from the point of view of engineering ethics, I think there are some circumstances where an engineer or mechanic should be held responsible (perhaps criminally) for their work.

If an engineer designs a car part that knowingly compromises the driver's safety for performance, then if the part breaks, leading to a serious injury or death, that engineer should be held responsible. If there are other factors (such as inadequate track fencing, runoff, tirewalls, etc), then they should be taken into consideration as well... the engineer might not be the only one responsible.

On that note, I remember reading somewhere (and this is all hypothetical - I'm not intending to apply that this is what actually happened), about a theory involving Senna's steering column breaking going into the corner. If this were the case, and it was determined that the engineers who designed the steering column were aware that there was a risk it could break they should be held accountable. I'm not sure about Europe, but in Canada, the onus would be on the engineer to prove that the part was satisfactory.

[Peter Mallett]

Jay,

The concept is called "Fit for Purpose" and if you can prove it wasn't you win. Try it.

The fact is this is not about criminal law its about being able to extradite people from one country to another without going through governmental channels. It is therefore one more example of the federalisation of Europe.

The moral argument tells me this is a good thing. The "patriot" in me says no.

[garcon]

From reading various reports, mainly BBC online, it seems the real sticking point is the fact that the measures do not allow for bail. Apparently an upshot of the proposal being rushed through and having much to do with terrorism and such. Quite handy that isn't it - if you want to pass a law that may infringe on human rights, just play the terror card - "it's part of the war on terror" - and everyone just says "oh, ok that's alright then"...

...er anyway, where was I?

Apparently there's no allowance for bail. So, in the example of a fatal F1 accident, a team owner/engineer could be arrested in any country that has signed up to the agreement, and could be detained pending the trial. Presumably this allows the arrest of a team member in a country other than where the incident occurred. I expect the case would still be tried under the laws of the country where the incident occurred - it'd get pretty silly if you could be prosecuted under Belgian law for an accident at Silverstone, for example.

The idea that team members could be detained until the trial is farcical when you consider that legal proceedings are still ongoing (despite two successful appeals!) concerning Senna's death 9 years ago!

[Jay]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Jay,

The concept is called "Fit for Purpose" and if you can prove it wasn't you win. Try it.

The fact is this is not about criminal law its about being able to extradite people from one country to another without going through governmental channels. It is therefore one more example of the federalisation of Europe.

The moral argument tells me this is a good thing. The "patriot" in me says no.

Perhaps I'm coming at this from the wrong angle. I'm not completely sure of the ramifications of this new legislation, and my background is not in law, but engineering - which is very different depending on where you come from. Any cases that come up would have to be looked at to see what factors led to the car crashing and any injuries or fatalities that resulted. I know what 'fit for purpose' means, but I'm not sure what you're referring to with 'it' and what it is you want me to try?

[Armco Bender]

This sort of stuff isn't new though,they've had dramas going right back to the Clark/von Trips crash,Rindt & Petersen deaths were the same.Italy always seems quite keen to fill its jails.I guess F1 teams have enough legal clout to get around these problems.

[rpolinski]

Bender that's the problem. At the moment if the Italians decide to arrest a team member all that team member needs to do is stay out of Italy. When this European warrant comes through they will have nowhere to hide from the mad Italian prosecutors.

[garcon]

Except that Italy hasn't signed up to the European Arrest Warrant. Yet.

[ASCII Man]

They will soon, you can be sure of that.

[climb]

Consodering the times demanded by the Italian justice procedures, it shouldn't be a problem: Senna trial will presumably come to an end in 2025...

[garcon]

...just before Berlusconi's restarts...

[paulzinho]

FLIPPING EU!!!!!!!

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